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Re: [technology-pmc] Asking for Approval of Jubula 1.0.0 Graduation/Release review

It is good to see consistent use of bugzilla. It is a positive step towards
an open process, but not everything is a bug or an enhancement request. The
fact that there is no traffic on the dev list, tells me that a lot of closed
conversations are taking place. The scrum meetings should be open if someone
wishes to join them. The team should be encouraged to use the mailing list
rather than direct e-mail, IM or even walking over to a co-worker's cube. It
takes more work (at least at first), but it makes your project transparent
to potential contributors.

> But since we are very service oriented we would stop answering a user only
as a last resort.
> So there will always be a problem getting our users to use open

This is a challenge that you will need to develop a strategy for addressing.
You will need to figure out how to draw the line between your service
business and your open source activities. Since Jubula is an open source
project now, you users (current and future) need an open place to ask
questions and review previous answers. This place is your project's forum
along with other open channels like stackoverflow. 

You shouldn't take any of this in a negative way. You are making great
progress, but it takes a lot of work to get a team accustomed to working in
a closed source environment to make a transition to working in the open.
That is why most projects take a year or two in incubation phase before
graduating to mature status. Good luck!

- Konstantin

-----Original Message-----
From: technology-pmc-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:technology-pmc-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Achim Lörke
Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2011 1:09 AM
To: Technology PMC
Subject: Re: [technology-pmc] Asking for Approval of Jubula 1.0.0
Graduation/Release review

For comments see below:

On 11.05.2011, at 18:24, Konstantin Komissarchik wrote:

> The record of talks and articles is very impressive, but these are 
> also consistent with commercial product activities. I am looking for 
> signs that the team has adopted the open source way. Statements like 
> this following are immediate red flags for me:
>> jubula-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx: Actually not much used since the team prefers
> face-to-face meetings.
> There is no disputing the fact that face-to-face meetings are very 
> effective and so are direct e-mail and IM. The trouble is that they 
> give a project opaque appearance and make it difficult to join. Most 
> potential contributors will monitor your communication channels long 
> before they announce themselves. They need to have something to 
> monitor. For a mature open source project, I expect to see lots of 
> traffic on the mailing list discussing everyday issues with the build, 
> asking questions about code, debating and proposing new functionality, 
> etc. When face-to-face team meetings are held, the meetings should be 
> open to others by providing a dial-in number and posting meeting 
> details on the mailing list and project website. Ideally, a summary of 
> the meeting should be provided afterwards for those interested parties 
> who couldn't attend due to a time conflict. Do not assume that you 
> only need to conduct development in this manner if you know that someone
is listening. Assume that someone is listening.

Okay, I believe I didn't get that out right. Let me try again:
Since we are using agile methods we have a daily standup meeting where minor
problems are discussed. Major problems, enhancements etc. are documented and
discussed in Eclipse Bugzilla. In our opinion Bugzilla is better for
tracking issues than a mailing list and easier searchable for users and
committers. If you check our bugs you will notice that a lot are submitted
by team members and actually contain a lot of information about the cause of
a problem and the rational for the fix or even the invalid/wontfix

>> Eclipse Forum is in the activation state. We encourage people who 
>> contact
> us by email to use the Eclipse Forum.
> Perhaps a stronger encouragement is necessary. I find the following 
> strategy to be very effective when dealing with direct e-mail 
> regarding open source projects... Re-post the text of the e-mail on the
forum and answer it there.

Sorry, but that would pose a legal problem in Germany where email is as
sanctioned as paper mail.

> Respond to the e-mail with a statement regarding the forum and a link 
> to your answer. Do not answer the question in the e-mail response. For 
> chronic offenders (I've encountered a few), at some point respond to 
> the e-mail with a gentle statement that it is the policy of the 
> project to use the forum for user support and do not answer the 
> question at all until user reposts it on the forum.

We are actually doing this. But since we are very service oriented we would
stop answering a user only as a last resort.

The final problem is that most of our users aren't developers but software
quality people (testers for short). Many of them don't use mailing lists or
forums for questions. Most of them haven't even heard of Eclipse (but we're
working on this). To give you an example: during a talk about Hudson CI I
gave at the Testing & Finance Conference there where only 2 of 30 attendees
who had ever heard of Hudson.

So there will always be a problem getting our users to use open

For contributors and committers Bugzilla is our communication channel of

> I am sorry, but Jubula has not yet demonstrated open source process 
> maturity to be ready to exit the incubation phase. I recommend another 
> point release for Indigo and continued effort on the above issues. If 
> you need help, don't hesitate to reach out to your PMC or your project's
> -1 on graduation
> +1 on non-1.0 release
> - Konstantin

- Achim

> -----Original Message-----
> From: technology-pmc-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:technology-pmc-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Achim Lörke
> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 7:48 AM
> To: Technology PMC
> Cc: emo@xxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: [technology-pmc] Asking for Approval of Jubula 1.0.0 
> Graduation/Release review
> Hi all,
> I've written up a first draft of a release doc. Have a look at
> http://www.eclipse.org/jubula/project-info/ReleaseDocs_1_0_0.html
> What's missing in the draft is information about the Bugzilla usage 
> which is our main way to make development issues transparent. If you 
> have a look you will notice the we use Bugzilla to document our code
changes and decisions.
> Please feel free to ask questions on topics which are not clear.
> Regards
> Achim
> On 10.05.2011, at 16:59, Chris Aniszczyk wrote:
>> 2011/5/10 Achim Lörke <Achim.Loerke@xxxxxxxxx>:
>>> I'm quite sure we've done everything necessary but please tell me if 
>>> anything is missing.
>> Before I vote, can you describe how you meet some of the needs listed
> here:
>> http://wiki.eclipse.org/Development_Resources/HOWTO/Criteria_for_Grad
>> u ating_from_Incubation_Phase_to_Mature_Phase
>> I know Jubula came from a mature code base, I'm just concerned how 
>> quickly it graduated to 1.0 without fulfilling some of the things a 
>> graduated eclipse.org project should do in regards to building a 
>> community, being transparent, etc...
>> So when you have the graduation review slides ready, it would be 
>> great to see what's there.
>> --
>> Cheers,
>> Chris Aniszczyk
>> http://aniszczyk.org
>> +1 512 961 6719
>> _______________________________________________
>> technology-pmc mailing list
>> technology-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx
>> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/technology-pmc
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