Community
Participate
Working Groups
In Bug 388476 the default for MRU was changed to true. Our Eclipse 4 default themes had this of (after a long and controversional discussion) and we should not lightly activate this again by default.
Andrey, can you provide a Gerrit review for this change?
(In reply to Lars Vogel from comment #1) > Andrey, can you provide a Gerrit review for this change? Yep, that's easy :-) P.S: I'm also going to buy extra popcorn and watch the MRU/non-MRU battle here :-)
(In reply to Andrey Loskutov from comment #2) > P.S: I'm also going to buy extra popcorn and watch the MRU/non-MRU battle > here :-) I personally have no strong opinion here for a change of the default but as this was changed in Eclipse 4 after a highly controversial discussion I don't want to change it back lightly. If someone cares enough I suggest a user voting on this. This would need to be organized by the person who care, would require significant participation and a clean indicator that the majority of people would like to have MRU back.
Gentlemen, in bug 388476 we had a consent from Doug Schaefer (bug 388476 comment 110), Dani Megert (bug 388476 comment 111, bug 388476 comment 114), Markus Keller (bug 388476 comment 112) and Paul Webster (bug 388476 comment 113) to make MRU the default (plus all the silent consent..). I think this agreement deserves respect.
(In reply to Stephan Herrmann from comment #4) > I think this agreement deserves respect. Except Markus statement I do not read from your links that Doug, Dani and Paul WANT to have MRU, it reads to me that they OK with a change, if users want it. If you feel strong about this, I again suggest a user voting, so that we have real data what our users want. I like to add that I was not involved in the decision to remove the default of MRU in Eclipse 4. IIRC Paul was. So if Paul gives his +1 for changing the default back, that is OK for me. But silently changing it to is a -1 from me.
(In reply to Lars Vogel from comment #5) > I like to add that I was not involved in the decision to remove the default > of MRU in Eclipse 4. IIRC Paul was. So if Paul gives his +1 for changing the > default back, that is OK for me. But silently changing it to is a -1 from me. I interpreted Paul's remarks in bug 388476c101 as his +1.
(In reply to Brian de Alwis from comment #6) > I interpreted Paul's remarks in bug 388476c101 as his +1. We do not have to interpret, I have asked Paul via email for this guidance. I personally have no personal preference but I'm -1 against changing defaults back without knowing the reasons for the original change.
(In reply to Lars Vogel from comment #7) > We do not have to interpret, I have asked Paul via email for this guidance. > I personally have no personal preference but I'm -1 against changing > defaults back without knowing the reasons for the original change. In general I agree about changing defaults, but from bug 388476 this is obviously a sore point with the user community and our current mechanism for dealing with it was severely lacking in usability. I think Andrey did the work to improve the usability and so it's fair for him to set the default back to MRU (that was my deal with Doug :-). I'm not against more discussion about it in the community, but Andrey's change has my +1. PW
(In reply to Paul Webster from comment #8) > I think Andrey did the work to improve the usability and so it's fair for > him to set the default back to MRU (that was my deal with Doug :-). I'm not > against more discussion about it in the community, but Andrey's change has > my +1. If I understand you correctly you give Andrey the right to select the default, which I think is fair. From an offline discussion with Andrey I think that Andrey very much prefers MRU set to false. Andrey, let us know which value you prefer.
(In reply to Lars Vogel from comment #9) > > If I understand you correctly you give Andrey the right to select the > default, which I think is fair. From an offline discussion with Andrey I > think that Andrey very much prefers MRU set to false. Well, sorta. I made a deal on the other bug to allow the preference and have the default set to MRU true, as long as someone did the work. I think the way it is now is how everybody on the bug expected it to work. I think in this case we would want a fair consensus to leave it with MRU false. PW
New Gerrit change created: https://git.eclipse.org/r/43688
(In reply to Lars Vogel from comment #9) > Andrey, let us know which value you prefer. I was always (since its introduction in 3.0) against MRU (just check the nice drawings I made against original MRU bug: http://andrei.gmxhome.de/eclipseMRUbug.html), so no change here. BUT: I *personally* undrestood the discussion on bug 388476 in the way that the majority wants the MRU enabled, therefore I implemented the first patch with MRU enabled by default. But guys, because one can change preferences now, I don't really care and can live with any default, as long as I can change it. I think that if we want make it right, we schould start a poll on Eclipse.org, somilar to what we had regarding line numbers etc. P.S. In case MRU should be off by default - patch is here: https://git.eclipse.org/r/43688
(In reply to Andrey Loskutov from comment #12) > (In reply to Lars Vogel from comment #9) > > Andrey, let us know which value you prefer. > > I was always (since its introduction in 3.0) against MRU (just check the > nice drawings I made against original MRU bug: > http://andrei.gmxhome.de/eclipseMRUbug.html), so no change here. > I did an informal poll here at EclipseCon and from (small number of) people and had the impression that most people are not aware of MRU or if they most disliked it. If someone want to change the 4.x default I suggest to create a new bug to organize and define the rules of a user voting. The Eclipse foundation could help with the execution of such a poll.
Gerrit change https://git.eclipse.org/r/43688 was merged to [master]. Commit: http://git.eclipse.org/c/platform/eclipse.platform.ui.git/commit/?id=37771da4be17965c74271aefe32221a35c3ffc71
.
New Gerrit change created: https://git.eclipse.org/r/43696
This is a no-go for M6. Even the Classic theme now has MRU disabled. The goal of the Classic theme was to give users a worry-free path to the brave new world. And as long as the logic behind the new order cannot be explained (bug 462091), it would even better be disabled in all themes.
(In reply to Markus Keller from comment #17) > This is a no-go for M6. Even the Classic theme now has MRU disabled. The > goal of the Classic theme was to give users a worry-free path to the brave > new world. > > And as long as the logic behind the new order cannot be explained (bug > 462091), it would even better be disabled in all themes. You mean *enabled* in all themes?
(In reply to Andrey Loskutov from comment #18) > (In reply to Markus Keller from comment #17) > > And as long as the logic behind the new order cannot be explained (bug > > 462091), it would even better be disabled in all themes. > > You mean *enabled* in all themes? Sorry, that sentence was unclear. I meant "the new order" should be disabled, which translates to "MRU enabled".
(In reply to Andrey Loskutov from comment #18) > (In reply to Markus Keller from comment #17) > > This is a no-go for M6. Even the Classic theme now has MRU disabled. The > > goal of the Classic theme was to give users a worry-free path to the brave > > new world. Opened Bug 462160 for the enablement of MRU in the classic themes. > > And as long as the logic behind the new order cannot be explained (bug > > 462091), it would even better be disabled in all themes. This seems to be highly controversial, if want to change the new default, we need a user voting as discussed earlier.
Verified in I20150318-2000
This has driven me potty on M6 (Bug 463189) and forced me to revert to M5a again until I discovered that there was a new preference with the wrong default and intelligible hovertext-free description. The gold standard for this is Eclipse 3.x Just becuase e4 has messed it up many times does not mean that users want it messed up. Please ensure that new defaults are compatible with the restored 3.x behavior. When I migrate from M5a to M6 I don't expect to find my workspace unuseable.
(In reply to Ed Willink from comment #22) > This has driven me potty on M6 (Bug 463189) and forced me to revert to M5a > again until I discovered that there was a new preference with the wrong > default and intelligible hovertext-free description. > > The gold standard for this is Eclipse 3.x This is highly controversial, you fall in one camp, others highly disagrees with your camp. If you want to change the new default introduced in the 4.x themes (which are default since a while), please organize a user voting. See https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=461736#c3 If you want to do this, please open a new bug for that.
(In reply to Lars Vogel from comment #23) > > The gold standard for this is Eclipse 3.x > This is highly controversial, you fall in one camp, others highly disagrees > with your camp. If you want to change the new default introduced in the 4.x > themes (which are default since a while), please organize a user voting. See > https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=461736#c3 If you want to do > this, please open a new bug for that. I don't understand. You change a long-established behavior in M6, not in e4. If you want to change a fundamental user ergonomic surely you have to organize the voting and notify cross-project.
(In reply to Ed Willink from comment #25) > (In reply to Lars Vogel from comment #23) > > > The gold standard for this is Eclipse 3.x > > This is highly controversial, you fall in one camp, others highly disagrees > > with your camp. If you want to change the new default introduced in the 4.x > > themes (which are default since a while), please organize a user voting. See > > https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=461736#c3 If you want to do > > this, please open a new bug for that. > > I don't understand. You change a long-established behavior in M6, not in e4. > If you want to change a fundamental user ergonomic surely you have to > organize the voting and notify cross-project. No we did not change the default. The default themes had MRU of. If you want to have it back you now can turn it on via the preference instead of switching the theme. The discussion for the classic theme was done in Bug 462160. If you want to change the default -> user voting. If you want MRU enabled for the classic themes -> Bug 462160.
(In reply to Lars Vogel from comment #26) > No we did not change the default. True. You introduced a new preference with a different default so that my workspace is broken when I upgrade to M6. No way can you claim that nothing changes from M5a to M6. This is a critical regression in user ergonmics.
(In reply to Ed Willink from comment #28) > (In reply to Lars Vogel from comment #26) > > No we did not change the default. > This is a critical regression in user ergonmics. I think you look for Bug 462160 for the enablement of MRU in the classic themes. Please comment in this bug. Or do I miss something in your argumentation?
(In reply to Paul Webster from comment #10) > > I think in this case we would want a fair consensus to leave it with MRU > false. Based on bug 388476 the consensus was MRU default to true. That's how I read the bug, and that's what I +1. Even if you want to leave the MRU default to false, I don't think it's a good idea to do it in such a way that it breaks the Classic theme (which we sent users to for the last 3 years so they could avoid our newer MRU-less pattern). PW
(In reply to Paul Webster from comment #30) > (In reply to Paul Webster from comment #10) > Even if you want to leave the MRU default to false, I don't think it's a > good idea to do it in such a way that it breaks the Classic theme (which we > sent users to for the last 3 years so they could avoid our newer MRU-less > pattern). Again I think it is Bug 462160 (and I agree with your accessment, that is why I opened the bug original).
(In reply to Paul Webster from comment #30) > (In reply to Paul Webster from comment #10) > > > > I think in this case we would want a fair consensus to leave it with MRU > > false. > > Based on bug 388476 the consensus was MRU default to true. That's how I > read the bug, and that's what I +1. > > Even if you want to leave the MRU default to false, I don't think it's a > good idea to do it in such a way that it breaks the Classic theme (which we > sent users to for the last 3 years so they could avoid our newer MRU-less > pattern). > > PW +1, see also comment 4. We should finally restore the 3.x behavior now that the option is there to get the "random" floating window behavior as I call it. Marking this one fixed again for M6 and opened bug 463221 to fix the default back to true.
