[technology-pmc] Re: Sapphire draft proposal

[mike.milinkovich@xxxxxxxxxxx]

So personally I think this is ready to go to proposal. If a lively conversation starts on the forum along the same lines we've been discussing today, that's fine with me. 


Mike Milinkovich
mike.milinkovich@xxxxxxxxxxx
+1.613.220.3223 (mobile)

-----Original Message-----
From: Konstantin Komissarchik <konstantin.komissarchik@xxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 10:02:24 
To: <mike.milinkovich@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: <wayne@xxxxxxxxxxx>; <technology-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx>; <pieter.humphrey@xxxxxxxxxx>; <emo@xxxxxxxxxxx>; <greg.stachnick@xxxxxxxxxx>; <teri.whitaker@xxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: Sapphire draft proposal

Hi Mike,

Thanks for your comments.

Let me assure everyone that this is not a code dump. Oracle invested several years developing this technology and it is in active and growing use in our Eclipse-based products. We want to contribute this technology to Eclipse Foundation because we think the community can benefit from it. We have done some amount of work to seek potential adopters and have a few leads, but found that to be difficult without being able to point people at a IP-safe code respository and samples. Once the project is established, we plan to actively seek adopters of this technology and will likely ourselves contribute UI to other Eclipse projects written using Sapphire.

> Personally, I am suspicious of the explanation that EMF is too general or too hard to
> learn. If you don't like EMF, wrap it with a DSL via Xtext.

The suspicion is understandable. It is hard to explain everything in a short project proposal. We will be able to explain more clearly once we are able to make a code contribution.

Xtext is a really cool technology but only simplifies use of an existing model. It does nothing to make it easier to create models, which is what we needed.

> We also seem to be growing a plethora of projects focused on simplifying
> client-side application construction (Riena, Scout). Have you looked at
> those projects as potential consumers of Sapphire?

We are familiar with these projects, but they all operate on quite different vertical vectors and are solving different usecases. I have not considered these projects as consumers of Sapphire, but anything is possible.

- Konstantin




----- Original Message -----
From: mike.milinkovich@xxxxxxxxxxx
To: konstantin.komissarchik@xxxxxxxxxx
Cc: pieter.humphrey@xxxxxxxxxx, teri.whitaker@xxxxxxxxxx, greg.stachnick@xxxxxxxxxx, technology-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx, wayne@xxxxxxxxxxx, emo@xxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 7:13:52 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: RE: Sapphire draft proposal

I actually don't have any comments on the proposal itself. As far as I am
concerned, it can go live with the edits proposed by Gunnar on the PMC
thread.

I do have some worries, but ones which will have to be solved by the project
once it's underway.

I have concerns about introducing another modeling framework. Personally, I
am suspicious of the explanation that EMF is too general or too hard to
learn. If you don't like EMF, wrap it with a DSL via Xtext. That certainly
seems like a cheaper and more consistent solution than writing and
*maintaining* a whole modeling framework.

We also seem to be growing a plethora of projects focused on simplifying
client-side application construction (Riena, Scout). Have you looked at
those projects as potential consumers of Sapphire?

But my biggest concern is how small and Oracle-specific the committer team
is. Increasing community and diversity on this project will be key to its
success. Do you have the commitment from Oracle to resource this project for
the long-term? This is an attempt to create a real Eclipse project, not a
code dump, right?

Mike Milinkovich
Office: +1.613.224.9461 x228
Mobile: +1.613.220.3223
mike.milinkovich@xxxxxxxxxxx

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Anne Jacko [mailto:emo@xxxxxxxxxxx]
> Sent: June-11-10 9:22 PM
> To: Mike Milinkovich; Wayne Beaton
> Cc: Konstantin Komissarchik; pieter.humphrey@xxxxxxxxxx Humphrey;
> teri.whitaker@xxxxxxxxxx; greg.stachnick@xxxxxxxxxx; Technology PMC
> Subject: Sapphire draft proposal
> 
> Mike, Wayne, please review and comment on this proposal from Konstantin.
He
> has also sent it to the Tech PMC for their comments.
> Thanks.
> 
> Anne Jacko
> emo@xxxxxxxxxxx
>