Re: [rt-pmc] Runtime platforms on the eclipse download page

[Jesse McConnell <jesse.mcconnell@xxxxxxxxx>]

mercy, hasn't this become a fun thread...thought I as the malcontent :P

Scott, sorry I am traveling so intermittently able to reply, but my point about what the purpose of the page was that if it is about discovery of _any_ technology (osgi, whatever) that happens to be under Eclipse runtime then it absolutely should be expanded in its scope.  If it is to showcase a small handful of successful projects then that another matter and up to Eclipse Foundation discretion since they are bankrolling the effort here.

Regardless, reading back over Ian's original bullets where they lay out their rules of discretion, I would say we should all be able to agree that ECF should be on the page _now_ and that vert.x (by virtue of the apparent lack of a download page of only eclipse cleared goop) should not be on the page at this moment in time though they will hopefully provide one when it makes sense.

I do think this thread has once more brought forth the argument that Runtime as a classification or higher level grouping at Eclipse is really suspect.  Runtime is about as ill defined as Container these days, only less sexy.  Not that every project needs to be reclassified and shoved under Technologies or whatever but...this thread does seem to highlight the edges are fuzzy.

I think Jeff McAffer was the last guy around that was really pushing for a broader group participation in the Runtime group, there was talk years ago about combined samples of different runtime stuff working together, going so far as a Ruby on Rails type setup of just eclipse technologies.  I think we have all just been very busy on our own projects and communities to really invest in much of a broader runtime community, especially since it is hard to see any individual project ROI on that.

I haven't paid much attention to what the foundation has been up to in promoting discovery of projects but I just took my first look at eclipse.org and man is it a confusing mess.  I can't see how you even find there is such thing as a Runtime group....apparently there is an automotive working group though, whatever that means.

<malcontent>

My problem with Eclipse has always been that it seems it is a fancy editor first and a software foundation second.  Comparing eclipse.org to apache.org is like night and day....literally with this new neon theme.  As a software foundation, Apache as a Download link at the top that takes you to a mirrors page which takes you to a download page linking every project under the foundation.  There is also a Projects link that takes you to a page with all the projects clearly laid out alphabetically.  Starting at eclipse.org I wouldn't know where to begin to get to Jetty, ECF, Equinox or Vert.x or really anything at all other then the fancy editor.  Shoot, I don't even see that there is a software foundation until the footer.

</malcontent>

It seems to me this new page is an attempt to start remedying this which if so I whole heartedly support....making it more content rich and useful as a discovery tool should be next on the todo list for it, and Eclipse as a software foundation.

cheers,

Jesse

--
jesse mcconnell
jesse.mcconnell@xxxxxxxxx

On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 12:28 AM, Christian Campo <christian.campo@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

​I agree with Scott, so I wont repeat it.

But seriously so the container argument is confusing to us and lets just assume for a second that it is confusing to most people out there as well. Why isnt the presence on the list choosen by number of downloads (aka "popularity") ? That makes a lot more sense.

christian

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Von: rt-pmc-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx <rt-pmc-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx> im Auftrag von Scott Lewis <slewis@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Gesendet: Freitag, 24. Juni 2016 00:32
An: rt-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx
Betreff: Re: [rt-pmc] Runtime platforms on the eclipse download page

 

On 6/23/2016 2:50 PM, Ian Skerrett wrote:

Thanks for the discussion. Let me try to respond to a number of the points raised.

 

-        Listing all the RT project on the eclipse.org/download page is just not an option for two reasons: 1) We want to keep the download page simple and sliding carousels are generally considered bad ui design.

As with much UI decisions, that's a subjective judgment...and UI may not always be the most important question at stake.  But I don't accept that what's being proposed in the name of 'good UI' necessarily has to be what's currently there.  That's a false choice.

We need to have a page that is static so people know what to expect. 2) if we list all the RT projects then why don’t we list all the Tools or Technology projects. Following this thought process, why don’t we have a carousel for each top-level project. We would quickly get to a situation with a download page that looks like the All Project page that we already link to.

-        If you want a page with all the RT downloads accessible, please create it. We will link to it under the Technology Communities section.

Since I doubt anyone will contribute this for all rt projects, this is essentially saying:  you are on your own/do it yourself.    Prediction:  those that can do it (pmc and/or Foundation) won't do anything, and those that don't have the means (project leads) can't do it...so it won't/can't happen.  Feel free to prove me wrong about that.

-        The container criteria was intended to scope what was on the download page. I didn’t realize it was a confusing term.

I think there is some agreement on this list that it is confusing and generally useless as RT selection criteria.  So you are going with it anyway?

It might be a mistake to be listing RAP as a project.

Why...what criteria would that be?

I can fine with having Jetty, Equinox and Concierge as the projects listed.

And why is that?  Equinox and Concierge are OSGi Framework impls, Jetty is not (it's rather a Servlet/websockets impl).   Concierge is in incubation, Equinox and Jetty are not.  What are the criteria that would lead to selecting those three projects? 

I think it is clear they all are container by the Wikipedia definition.  I do believe Vert.x will be in the same situation.

Surprise, surprise.   Net effect:  no changes...and the decisions about RT project selection remain based on arbitrary, opaque and generally confusing criteria.   Alternatives:  Random changing every day?...with the 'All Runtime Projects' as one that's always present?  Or perhaps 'All Runtime Projects' only and a Page with list of RT project download pages.

-        Jesses I agree one reason is definitely to showcase the diversity of the Eclipse community. I do hope/believe it will also help some of the projects and communities. You might be surprised that more people discover Jetty. J

So what does it take for a project to be included?   Apparent Answer:   Being on Ian's RT favorites list.   That certainly represents a level playing field and good open source ways.   See rigged game.

Scott

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