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Re: [modeling-pmc] feedback on GMT web site
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Hi Frederic,
Just to be clear, my original objection and proposal is for external links
to contributing organization for a particular project within Modeling. I
don't have a problem with links to external specification organizations,
dependent open source projects, etc.
I do agree it should be an overall Eclipse.org position/policy, and I also
like the idea of automating the detection somehow. Until then, PMCs are the
"police" I guess.
Best,
Rich
On 10/21/07 12:11 PM, "Frédéric Jouault" <frederic.jouault@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
> Hi all,
>
>
> Please find my remarks below.
> Sorry for mostly using ATL as an example, but this is the case I know best
> ;-).
>
>
> * Regarding logos *
>
> If used correctly, logos are quite useful. For instance, they help to
> show continuity from the website to the tool.
>
> Let me take the M2M/ATL example: the logo that is present on the
> website is merely an enlarged version of the icon used on ATL Files,
> ATL Projects, and the ATL Perspective.
>
>
> I agree that the design of logos should probably be more consistent
> than what is currently the case in some projects (e.g., GMT). However,
> I would like to point out that some (probably insufficient) efforts
> have already been made on GMT: the AM3, AMW, ATL (when it was there),
> and TCS logos have a very similar design that reuses some of the
> Eclipse logo features (e.g., circular shape, predominance of blue).
>
>
> To summarize: Having logos requires extra work, and adds value. I
> would rather encourage and help people to better design their logos,
> than blaming them for their efforts, or asking them to discard their
> work ;-).
>
>
> * Regarding external links *
>
> "To link or not to link?"
>
>
> It seems to me that, should there be a "no external link" policy on
> Eclipse.org:
>
> - It would be very helpful to have an automated mechanism to enforce
> it (e.g., by automatically removing these links from the served
> pages), or at least to help detect violations (e.g., by automatically
> computing the list of such links).
> Although I believe all of us would certainly try our best to comply
> with such a policy (whether we individually consider it good or bad),
> we would likely not like to have the unnecessary "external link tracking"
> burden/frustration source ;-).
>
>
> - This policy should be especially followed on the main page
> http://www.eclipse.org/, where we currently have links to: amd.com,
> bzmedia.com, money.cnn.com, etc.
> There may be some very good reasons to have these links there. But I
> am also sure there also are some very good reasons for many of the
> other external links currently present on Eclipse.org (e.g., linking
> to some external information instead of expecting users to
> google^H^H^H^H^H^Hsearch for it).
>
> Of course, one way to deal with this would be to have a very complex
> policy that would state that some external links are authorized
> depending on specific complex conditions. For instance: on the main
> page to anything, but not on project pages except if... (e.g., links
> to java.sun.com on eclipse.org/jdt).
>
> However, I believe this is likely to create a lot of frustration! For
> instance: why would links to external documentation be allowed for
> Java to java.sun.com (from the creators of Java), but not to external
> documentation for ATL to the website of the creators of ATL?
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Frédéric Jouault
>
> On 10/20/07, Nick Boldt <codeslave@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> Yeah, those are very cool, and show better like-minded branding than what we
>> have so far for EMF/GMF/EMP. One benefit to ours is that the Modeling logo
>> doubles as feature icon in the Help > About dialog within Eclipse. You could
>> do the same by riffing on the Eclipse logo and adding your gear(s) to it.
>>
>> While we're talking about marketing & branding, and not to kick sand on
>> anyone... will STP have to be renamed (as did Mylyn, and now PHP/PDT, ATF,
>> etc.) when it's time to exit incubation and the Foundation decides it wants
>> to copyright "STP"? As a brandname STP is already used prominently in both
>> the US and Canada [1]. Does that matter, given it's got nothing to do with
>> software?
>>
>> [1] http://www.stp.com/
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Nick
>>
>>
>> On 10/20/07, Ian Skerrett < ian.skerrett@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>> FWIW, I really like what STP has done. It conveys a sense of integration
>>> and a family of projects. I hadn't seen this before, thanks for pointing
>> it
>>> out.
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Etienne Juliot [mailto:etienne.juliot@xxxxxxx ]
>>>> Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2007 8:50 AM
>>>> To: PMC members mailing list
>>>> Cc: ian.skerrett@xxxxxxxxxxx; Bjorn Freeman-Benson
>>>> Subject: Re: [modeling-pmc] feedback on GMT web site
>>>>
>>>> On STP project, we just have created a set of logos with a common
>> design.
>>>> Take a look at: http://www.eclipse.org/stp/
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps this could be a good idea for GMT and/or EMP projects.
>>>>
>>>> Etienne
>>>> Obeo
>>>>
>>>> Jean Bezivin a écrit :
>>>>> Ian,
>>>>>
>>>>> I tried to encourage people to create logos,
>>>>> even before the clarification on project vs component started,
>>>>> even before GMT joined modeling.
>>>>>
>>>>> I do not know where on Eclipse I should have read that this practice
>>>>> should be avoided.
>>>>>
>>>>> I do not see how to change the situation now
>>>>>
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Jean
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 10/19/07, *Ian Skerrett* < ian.skerrett@xxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> <mailto:ian.skerrett@xxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Jean,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Logos and branding can be a very emotional subject. I understand
>>>>> that people want to create an identity for the components that
>>>>> they are developing. However, from an outsider perspective it
>>>>> can create a lot of confusion and creates a perception that each
>>>>> component is an individual discrete solution. Something I don't
>>>>> think you want to convey on the modeling project.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Ian
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> ----
>>>>>
>>>>> *From:* jbezivin@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:jbezivin@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> [mailto:jbezivin@xxxxxxxxx <mailto: jbezivin@xxxxxxxxx>] *On
>> Behalf
>>>>> Of * Jean Bezivin
>>>>> *Sent:* Friday, October 19, 2007 1:42 PM
>>>>> *To:* Ed Merks
>>>>> *Cc:* ian.skerrett@xxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:ian.skerrett@xxxxxxxxxxx>;
>>>>> PMC members mailing list; Bjorn Freeman-Benson;
>>>>> modeling-pmc-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> <mailto:modeling-pmc-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>
>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [modeling-pmc] feedback on GMT web site
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Ian,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I believe this is going much too far.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> When the ATL (AMW, TCS, etc.) logos were defined for
>>>>>
>>>>> the sole purpose of Eclipse component identification,
>>>>>
>>>>> I considered this as a very positive initiative.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I really do not understand the rationale for this radical
>> position.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> In my mind it is going to be VERY STRONGLY counter productive
>>>>>
>>>>> and will discourage a lot of good willing contributions.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Jean
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 10/19/07, *Ed Merks* < merks@xxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> <mailto:merks@xxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Ian,
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't really agree with your take on this. We have lots of nice
>>>>> logos and
>>>>> I'd not want to give up my EMF one:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>> http://www.eclipse.org/modeling/images/modeling_pos_logo_fc_med.jpg
>>>>>
>> http://www.eclipse.org/modeling/emf/images/emf_logo.png
>>>>>
>> <http://www.eclipse.org/modeling/emf/images/emf_logo.png>
>>>>>
>> http://www.eclipse.org/gmf/images/logo_banner.png
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not sure how many of the logos on the GMT page are non-Eclipse
>>>> in
>>>>> nature and that would be somewhat my concern:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.eclipse.org/gmt/download/
>>>>>
>>>>> But I personally think the ATL logo is a very nice Eclipse-branded
>>>>> logo
>>>>> that helps to build up the repertoir of Eclipse bands and
>>>> trademarks:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>> http://www.eclipse.org/m2m/atl/resources/ATL_Logo_Text.png
>>>>>
>>>>> It's certainly important to have better integration between
>>>>> projects, I
>>>>> heard that message loud and clear at ESE and we are lacking in
>>>>> this area,
>>>>> but diversity also has great value and allowing folks their own
>>>>> space in
>>>>> which to exist seems necessary to foster that...
>>>>>
>>>>> Consider projects too like RAP:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.eclipse.org/rap/
>>>>>
>>>>> There isn't even an attempt to define what Ajax means. It's even
>>>>> lost the
>>>>> capitalization that you'd expect from an acryonym. For
>>>>> example, ifRAP is
>>>>> fine ( http://www.eclipse.org/rap/), it seems kind of a double
>>>>> standard to
>>>>> say ATL is not.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Ed Merks/Toronto/IBM@IBMCA
>>>>> mailto: merks@xxxxxxxxxx <mailto: merks@xxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> 905-413-3265 (t/l 969)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Ian Skerrett"
>>>>> <ian.skerrett@ecl
>>>>> ipse.org
>>>>> <http://ipse.org/>>
>>>> To
>>>>> Sent by: "'Jean Bezivin'"
>>>>> modeling-pmc-boun <
>>>>> Jean.Bezivin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:Jean.Bezivin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> ,
>>>>> ces@xxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:ces@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> "'PMC members mailing list'"
>>>>> <
>> modeling-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> <mailto:modeling-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx >>
>>>>>
>>>>> cc
>>>>> 10/19/2007 01:12 "'Bjorn Freeman-Benson'"
>>>>> PM <
>>>>> bjorn.freeman-benson@xxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> <mailto:bjorn.freeman-benson@xxxxxxxxxxx>>,
>>>>>
>>>>> modeling-pmc-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> <mailto:modeling-pmc-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>
>>>> Subject
>>>>> Please respond to RE: [modeling-pmc] feedback
>>>>> on GMT
>>>>> ian.skerrett@ecli web site
>>>>> pse.org <http://pse.org/>; Please
>>>>> respond to
>>>>> PMC members
>>>>> mailing list
>>>>> < modeling-pmc@ecl
>>>>> ipse.org <http://ipse.org/>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> What I would suggest is that the components of GMT should not have
>> a
>>>>> logo/graphic and have a descriptive name not a nickname. I think
>>>> this
>>>>> would go a long way to improving the situation. Btw, this goes for
>>>>> all
>>>>> the modeling sub-projects, for instance
>>>>> http://www.eclipse.org/m2m/atl/
>>>>> Having all these different logos in my opinion conveys a
>>>>> perception that
>>>>> there is no strategy or integration between the components or the
>>>>> projects.
>>>>>
>>>>> My 2 cents?.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ian
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From: jbezivin@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:jbezivin@xxxxxxxxx> [mailto:
>>>>> jbezivin@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:jbezivin@xxxxxxxxx >] On Behalf Of Jean
>>>>> Bezivin
>>>>> Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 12:48 PM
>>>>> To: PMC members mailing list
>>>>> Cc: ian.skerrett@xxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:ian.skerrett@xxxxxxxxxxx>;
>>>>> Bjorn Freeman-Benson;
>>>>> modeling-pmc-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> <mailto:modeling-pmc-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [modeling-pmc] feedback on GMT web site
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree with you.
>>>>>
>>>>> I also agree that we have to improve much the organization of GMT.
>>>>>
>>>>> For oAW matters, I will transmit these remarks to Markus Voelter.
>>>>> I will discuss with him directly next week at OOPSLA because
>>>>> he will be there.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bjorn, will you be at OOPSLA and if yes would it be possible
>>>>> to have a short meeting with Markus to stress the importance
>>>>> of what has been said?
>>>>>
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Jean
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 10/19/07, Ed Merks <merks@xxxxxxxxxx <mailto:
>> merks@xxxxxxxxxx>>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Ian,
>>>>>
>>>>> I'll draw Nick's attention to that link gone astray...
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree with you. As the various parts of the oAW technology are
>>>>> incorporated into the other projects, like Xpand into M2T and MWE
>>>> into
>>>>> EMFT, I'll ask folks to avoid any non-Eclipse branding on the
>>>>> site. You
>>>>> won't find IBM/Rational branding nor Borland branding at Eclipse,
>>>>> so we
>>>>> ought not be to seeing anything that isn't part of Eclipse's
>>>> branding.
>>>>> We'll queue up this topic for discussion at the next PMC meeting.
>>>>>
>>>>> It would be good to improve GMT's image as well. What are your
>>>>> thoughts on
>>>>>
>>>>> this Jean?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Ed Merks/Toronto/IBM@IBMCA
>>>>> mailto: merks@xxxxxxxxxx <mailto:merks@xxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> 905-413-3265 (t/l 969)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Ian Skerrett"
>>>>> < ian.skerrett@ecl
>>>>> ipse.org
>>>>> < http://ipse.org/>>
>>>> To
>>>>> Sent by: < modeling-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> <mailto: modeling-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx> >
>>>>>
>>>>> modeling-pmc-boun
>> cc
>>>>> ces@xxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:ces@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> "'Bjorn Freeman-Benson'"
>>>>> <
>>>>> bjorn.freeman-benson@xxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> <mailto:bjorn.freeman-benson@xxxxxxxxxxx>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Subject
>>>>> 10/19/2007 12:06 [modeling-pmc] feedback on
>>>>> GMT web
>>>>> PM site
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Please respond to
>>>>> ian.skerrett@ecli
>>>>> pse.org <http://pse.org/>; Please
>>>>> respond to
>>>>> PMC members
>>>>> mailing list
>>>>> <modeling-pmc@ecl
>>>>> ipse.org <http://ipse.org/> >
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Modeling PMC,
>>>>>
>>>>> Today, I was looking at the open Achitectureware project and in
>>>>> general the
>>>>>
>>>>> GMT project. I don?t usually provide feedback on project
>> specific
>>>>> branding and marketing but I thought compelled to do so in this
>>>> case.
>>>>>
>>>>> IMHO, from a branding and marketing perspective, the open
>>>>> Architectureware
>>>>> project looks out of place in the context of the Eclipse
>>>>> community. They
>>>>> essentially look like they have parachuted in their existing
>>>>> project into
>>>>> an Eclipse project web page. They actually also seem to have
>>>> another
>>>>> project web site
>> http://www.openarchitectureware.org/
>>>>> <http://www.openarchitectureware.org/>. I find
>> it all very
>>>>> confusing and probably detrimental to the Eclipse brand.
>>>>>
>>>>> If I look at the GMT site, it seems like the open architectureware
>>>>> scenario
>>>>>
>>>>> plays out again and again. I see lots of project logos and cool
>>>>> names
>>>>> that seem to have very little to do with Eclipse? The perception
>>>>> I am left
>>>>> with is that GMT is hovering up existing modeling projects but not
>>>>> really
>>>>> integrating them into Eclipse? I think what you are doing is
>>>>> creating an
>>>>> incubator for new modeling projects, which is great, but in my
>>>>> opinion what
>>>>> you are communicating is something very different and will hurt
>> the
>>>>> perception of the overall modeling project.
>>>>>
>>>>> As I said, I usually don?t provide this type of feedback but in
>>>>> this case I
>>>>> just had to say something. I?d be happy to discuss further and
>>>>> if you
>>>>> want.
>>>>>
>>>>> Btw, when I went to try to find the PMC mailing list, the link on
>>>>> this page
>>>>> http://www.eclipse.org/modeling/ points to
>>>>> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/emft-dev
>>>>> <
>> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/emft-dev>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Ian
>>>>>
>>>>> Ian Skerrett
>>>>> Director of Marketing
>>>>> Eclipse Foundation
>>>>> 613-224-9461 ext. 227
>>>>> blog: ianskerrett.wordpress.com
>> <http://ianskerrett.wordpress.com/ >
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> modeling-pmc mailing list
>>>>> modeling-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx <mailto: modeling-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>
>> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/modeling-pmc
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> modeling-pmc mailing list
>>>>> modeling-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:modeling-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>
>> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/modeling-pmc
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> __________________________________
>>>>> Jean Bézivin - ATLAS Group (INRIA & LINA) - University of Nantes -
>>>>> 2, rue
>>>>> de la Houssinière
>>>>> 44322 Nantes cedex 3 - France
>>>>> tel. +33 2 51 12 58 13 - fax. +33 2 51 12 58 12 - cell.+33 6 14 32
>>>>> 22 36
>>>>> - e.mail: Jean.Bezivin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> <mailto:Jean.Bezivin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx >
>>>>> http://www.sciences.univ-nantes.fr/lina/atl/ -
>> Skype: jbezivin
>>>>> ---------------------------------------
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> modeling-pmc mailing list
>>>>> modeling-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:modeling-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>
>> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/modeling-pmc
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> __________________________________
>>>>> Jean Bézivin - ATLAS Group (INRIA & LINA) - University of Nantes -
>>>>> 2, rue de la Houssinière
>>>>> 44322 Nantes cedex 3 - France
>>>>> tel. +33 2 51 12 58 13 - fax. +33 2 51 12 58 12 - cell.+33 6 14 32
>>>>> 22 36
>>>>> - e.mail: Jean.Bezivin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> <mailto:Jean.Bezivin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx >
>>>>> http://www.sciences.univ-nantes.fr/lina/atl/ -
>> Skype: jbezivin
>>>>> ---------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> __________________________________
>>>>> Jean Bézivin - ATLAS Group (INRIA & LINA) - University of Nantes - 2,
>>>>> rue de la Houssinière
>>>>> 44322 Nantes cedex 3 - France
>>>>> tel. +33 2 51 12 58 13 - fax. +33 2 51 12 58 12 - cell.+33 6 14 32 22
>> 36
>>>>> - e.mail: Jean.Bezivin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:Jean.Bezivin@univ-
>>>> nantes.fr>
>>>>> http://www.sciences.univ-nantes.fr/lina/atl/ - Skype:
>> jbezivin
>>>>> ---------------------------------------
>>>>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> modeling-pmc mailing list
>>>>> modeling-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/modeling-pmc
>>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> modeling-pmc mailing list
>>> modeling-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx
>>> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/modeling-pmc
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> modeling-pmc mailing list
>> modeling-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx
>> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/modeling-pmc
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> modeling-pmc mailing list
> modeling-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx
> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/modeling-pmc
--
Richard C. Gronback
Borland Software Corporation
richard.gronback@xxxxxxxxxxx
+1 860 227 9215
