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Re: [modeling-pmc] feedback on GMT web site
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Hi all,
Please find my remarks below.
Sorry for mostly using ATL as an example, but this is the case I know best ;-).
* Regarding logos *
If used correctly, logos are quite useful. For instance, they help to
show continuity from the website to the tool.
Let me take the M2M/ATL example: the logo that is present on the
website is merely an enlarged version of the icon used on ATL Files,
ATL Projects, and the ATL Perspective.
I agree that the design of logos should probably be more consistent
than what is currently the case in some projects (e.g., GMT). However,
I would like to point out that some (probably insufficient) efforts
have already been made on GMT: the AM3, AMW, ATL (when it was there),
and TCS logos have a very similar design that reuses some of the
Eclipse logo features (e.g., circular shape, predominance of blue).
To summarize: Having logos requires extra work, and adds value. I
would rather encourage and help people to better design their logos,
than blaming them for their efforts, or asking them to discard their
work ;-).
* Regarding external links *
"To link or not to link?"
It seems to me that, should there be a "no external link" policy on Eclipse.org:
- It would be very helpful to have an automated mechanism to enforce
it (e.g., by automatically removing these links from the served
pages), or at least to help detect violations (e.g., by automatically
computing the list of such links).
Although I believe all of us would certainly try our best to comply
with such a policy (whether we individually consider it good or bad),
we would likely not like to have the unnecessary "external link tracking"
burden/frustration source ;-).
- This policy should be especially followed on the main page
http://www.eclipse.org/, where we currently have links to: amd.com,
bzmedia.com, money.cnn.com, etc.
There may be some very good reasons to have these links there. But I
am also sure there also are some very good reasons for many of the
other external links currently present on Eclipse.org (e.g., linking
to some external information instead of expecting users to
google^H^H^H^H^H^Hsearch for it).
Of course, one way to deal with this would be to have a very complex
policy that would state that some external links are authorized
depending on specific complex conditions. For instance: on the main
page to anything, but not on project pages except if... (e.g., links
to java.sun.com on eclipse.org/jdt).
However, I believe this is likely to create a lot of frustration! For
instance: why would links to external documentation be allowed for
Java to java.sun.com (from the creators of Java), but not to external
documentation for ATL to the website of the creators of ATL?
Best regards,
Frédéric Jouault
On 10/20/07, Nick Boldt <codeslave@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Yeah, those are very cool, and show better like-minded branding than what we
> have so far for EMF/GMF/EMP. One benefit to ours is that the Modeling logo
> doubles as feature icon in the Help > About dialog within Eclipse. You could
> do the same by riffing on the Eclipse logo and adding your gear(s) to it.
>
> While we're talking about marketing & branding, and not to kick sand on
> anyone... will STP have to be renamed (as did Mylyn, and now PHP/PDT, ATF,
> etc.) when it's time to exit incubation and the Foundation decides it wants
> to copyright "STP"? As a brandname STP is already used prominently in both
> the US and Canada [1]. Does that matter, given it's got nothing to do with
> software?
>
> [1] http://www.stp.com/
>
> Cheers,
>
> Nick
>
>
> On 10/20/07, Ian Skerrett < ian.skerrett@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > FWIW, I really like what STP has done. It conveys a sense of integration
> > and a family of projects. I hadn't seen this before, thanks for pointing
> it
> > out.
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Etienne Juliot [mailto:etienne.juliot@xxxxxxx ]
> > > Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2007 8:50 AM
> > > To: PMC members mailing list
> > > Cc: ian.skerrett@xxxxxxxxxxx; Bjorn Freeman-Benson
> > > Subject: Re: [modeling-pmc] feedback on GMT web site
> > >
> > > On STP project, we just have created a set of logos with a common
> design.
> > > Take a look at: http://www.eclipse.org/stp/
> > >
> > > Perhaps this could be a good idea for GMT and/or EMP projects.
> > >
> > > Etienne
> > > Obeo
> > >
> > > Jean Bezivin a écrit :
> > > > Ian,
> > > >
> > > > I tried to encourage people to create logos,
> > > > even before the clarification on project vs component started,
> > > > even before GMT joined modeling.
> > > >
> > > > I do not know where on Eclipse I should have read that this practice
> > > > should be avoided.
> > > >
> > > > I do not see how to change the situation now
> > > >
> > > > Best regards,
> > > >
> > > > Jean
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 10/19/07, *Ian Skerrett* < ian.skerrett@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > <mailto:ian.skerrett@xxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Jean,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Logos and branding can be a very emotional subject. I understand
> > > > that people want to create an identity for the components that
> > > > they are developing. However, from an outsider perspective it
> > > > can create a lot of confusion and creates a perception that each
> > > > component is an individual discrete solution. Something I don't
> > > > think you want to convey on the modeling project.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Ian
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > ----
> > > >
> > > > *From:* jbezivin@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:jbezivin@xxxxxxxxx>
> > > > [mailto:jbezivin@xxxxxxxxx <mailto: jbezivin@xxxxxxxxx>] *On
> Behalf
> > > > Of * Jean Bezivin
> > > > *Sent:* Friday, October 19, 2007 1:42 PM
> > > > *To:* Ed Merks
> > > > *Cc:* ian.skerrett@xxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:ian.skerrett@xxxxxxxxxxx>;
> > > > PMC members mailing list; Bjorn Freeman-Benson;
> > > > modeling-pmc-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > <mailto:modeling-pmc-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > >
> > > > *Subject:* Re: [modeling-pmc] feedback on GMT web site
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Ian,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I believe this is going much too far.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > When the ATL (AMW, TCS, etc.) logos were defined for
> > > >
> > > > the sole purpose of Eclipse component identification,
> > > >
> > > > I considered this as a very positive initiative.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I really do not understand the rationale for this radical
> position.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > In my mind it is going to be VERY STRONGLY counter productive
> > > >
> > > > and will discourage a lot of good willing contributions.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Best regards,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Jean
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 10/19/07, *Ed Merks* < merks@xxxxxxxxxx
> > > > <mailto:merks@xxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Ian,
> > > >
> > > > I don't really agree with your take on this. We have lots of nice
> > > > logos and
> > > > I'd not want to give up my EMF one:
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> http://www.eclipse.org/modeling/images/modeling_pos_logo_fc_med.jpg
> > > >
> http://www.eclipse.org/modeling/emf/images/emf_logo.png
> > > >
> <http://www.eclipse.org/modeling/emf/images/emf_logo.png>
> > > >
> http://www.eclipse.org/gmf/images/logo_banner.png
> > > >
> > > > I'm not sure how many of the logos on the GMT page are non-Eclipse
> > > in
> > > > nature and that would be somewhat my concern:
> > > >
> > > > http://www.eclipse.org/gmt/download/
> > > >
> > > > But I personally think the ATL logo is a very nice Eclipse-branded
> > > > logo
> > > > that helps to build up the repertoir of Eclipse bands and
> > > trademarks:
> > > >
> > > >
> http://www.eclipse.org/m2m/atl/resources/ATL_Logo_Text.png
> > > >
> > > > It's certainly important to have better integration between
> > > > projects, I
> > > > heard that message loud and clear at ESE and we are lacking in
> > > > this area,
> > > > but diversity also has great value and allowing folks their own
> > > > space in
> > > > which to exist seems necessary to foster that...
> > > >
> > > > Consider projects too like RAP:
> > > >
> > > > http://www.eclipse.org/rap/
> > > >
> > > > There isn't even an attempt to define what Ajax means. It's even
> > > > lost the
> > > > capitalization that you'd expect from an acryonym. For
> > > > example, ifRAP is
> > > > fine ( http://www.eclipse.org/rap/), it seems kind of a double
> > > > standard to
> > > > say ATL is not.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Ed Merks/Toronto/IBM@IBMCA
> > > > mailto: merks@xxxxxxxxxx <mailto: merks@xxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > 905-413-3265 (t/l 969)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Ian Skerrett"
> > > > <ian.skerrett@ecl
> > > > ipse.org
> > > > <http://ipse.org/>>
> > > To
> > > > Sent by: "'Jean Bezivin'"
> > > > modeling-pmc-boun <
> > > > Jean.Bezivin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:Jean.Bezivin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>,
> > > > ces@xxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:ces@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > "'PMC members mailing list'"
> > > > <
> modeling-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > <mailto:modeling-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx >>
> > > >
> > > > cc
> > > > 10/19/2007 01:12 "'Bjorn Freeman-Benson'"
> > > > PM <
> > > > bjorn.freeman-benson@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > <mailto:bjorn.freeman-benson@xxxxxxxxxxx>>,
> > > >
> > > > modeling-pmc-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > <mailto:modeling-pmc-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > >
> > > Subject
> > > > Please respond to RE: [modeling-pmc] feedback
> > > > on GMT
> > > > ian.skerrett@ecli web site
> > > > pse.org <http://pse.org/>; Please
> > > > respond to
> > > > PMC members
> > > > mailing list
> > > > < modeling-pmc@ecl
> > > > ipse.org <http://ipse.org/>>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > What I would suggest is that the components of GMT should not have
> a
> > > > logo/graphic and have a descriptive name not a nickname. I think
> > > this
> > > > would go a long way to improving the situation. Btw, this goes for
> > > > all
> > > > the modeling sub-projects, for instance
> > > > http://www.eclipse.org/m2m/atl/
> > > > Having all these different logos in my opinion conveys a
> > > > perception that
> > > > there is no strategy or integration between the components or the
> > > > projects.
> > > >
> > > > My 2 cents?.
> > > >
> > > > Ian
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > From: jbezivin@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:jbezivin@xxxxxxxxx> [mailto:
> > > > jbezivin@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:jbezivin@xxxxxxxxx >] On Behalf Of Jean
> > > > Bezivin
> > > > Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 12:48 PM
> > > > To: PMC members mailing list
> > > > Cc: ian.skerrett@xxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:ian.skerrett@xxxxxxxxxxx>;
> > > > Bjorn Freeman-Benson;
> > > > modeling-pmc-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > <mailto:modeling-pmc-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > Subject: Re: [modeling-pmc] feedback on GMT web site
> > > >
> > > > I agree with you.
> > > >
> > > > I also agree that we have to improve much the organization of GMT.
> > > >
> > > > For oAW matters, I will transmit these remarks to Markus Voelter.
> > > > I will discuss with him directly next week at OOPSLA because
> > > > he will be there.
> > > >
> > > > Bjorn, will you be at OOPSLA and if yes would it be possible
> > > > to have a short meeting with Markus to stress the importance
> > > > of what has been said?
> > > >
> > > > Best regards,
> > > >
> > > > Jean
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 10/19/07, Ed Merks <merks@xxxxxxxxxx <mailto:
> merks@xxxxxxxxxx>>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > Ian,
> > > >
> > > > I'll draw Nick's attention to that link gone astray...
> > > >
> > > > I agree with you. As the various parts of the oAW technology are
> > > > incorporated into the other projects, like Xpand into M2T and MWE
> > > into
> > > > EMFT, I'll ask folks to avoid any non-Eclipse branding on the
> > > > site. You
> > > > won't find IBM/Rational branding nor Borland branding at Eclipse,
> > > > so we
> > > > ought not be to seeing anything that isn't part of Eclipse's
> > > branding.
> > > > We'll queue up this topic for discussion at the next PMC meeting.
> > > >
> > > > It would be good to improve GMT's image as well. What are your
> > > > thoughts on
> > > >
> > > > this Jean?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Ed Merks/Toronto/IBM@IBMCA
> > > > mailto: merks@xxxxxxxxxx <mailto:merks@xxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > 905-413-3265 (t/l 969)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Ian Skerrett"
> > > > < ian.skerrett@ecl
> > > > ipse.org
> > > > < http://ipse.org/>>
> > > To
> > > > Sent by: < modeling-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > <mailto: modeling-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx> >
> > > >
> > > > modeling-pmc-boun
> cc
> > > > ces@xxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:ces@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > "'Bjorn Freeman-Benson'"
> > > > <
> > > > bjorn.freeman-benson@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > <mailto:bjorn.freeman-benson@xxxxxxxxxxx>>
> > > >
> > > > Subject
> > > > 10/19/2007 12:06 [modeling-pmc] feedback on
> > > > GMT web
> > > > PM site
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Please respond to
> > > > ian.skerrett@ecli
> > > > pse.org <http://pse.org/>; Please
> > > > respond to
> > > > PMC members
> > > > mailing list
> > > > <modeling-pmc@ecl
> > > > ipse.org <http://ipse.org/> >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Modeling PMC,
> > > >
> > > > Today, I was looking at the open Achitectureware project and in
> > > > general the
> > > >
> > > > GMT project. I don?t usually provide feedback on project
> specific
> > > > branding and marketing but I thought compelled to do so in this
> > > case.
> > > >
> > > > IMHO, from a branding and marketing perspective, the open
> > > > Architectureware
> > > > project looks out of place in the context of the Eclipse
> > > > community. They
> > > > essentially look like they have parachuted in their existing
> > > > project into
> > > > an Eclipse project web page. They actually also seem to have
> > > another
> > > > project web site
> http://www.openarchitectureware.org/
> > > > <http://www.openarchitectureware.org/>. I find
> it all very
> > > > confusing and probably detrimental to the Eclipse brand.
> > > >
> > > > If I look at the GMT site, it seems like the open architectureware
> > > > scenario
> > > >
> > > > plays out again and again. I see lots of project logos and cool
> > > > names
> > > > that seem to have very little to do with Eclipse? The perception
> > > > I am left
> > > > with is that GMT is hovering up existing modeling projects but not
> > > > really
> > > > integrating them into Eclipse? I think what you are doing is
> > > > creating an
> > > > incubator for new modeling projects, which is great, but in my
> > > > opinion what
> > > > you are communicating is something very different and will hurt
> the
> > > > perception of the overall modeling project.
> > > >
> > > > As I said, I usually don?t provide this type of feedback but in
> > > > this case I
> > > > just had to say something. I?d be happy to discuss further and
> > > > if you
> > > > want.
> > > >
> > > > Btw, when I went to try to find the PMC mailing list, the link on
> > > > this page
> > > > http://www.eclipse.org/modeling/ points to
> > > > https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/emft-dev
> > > > <
> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/emft-dev>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Ian
> > > >
> > > > Ian Skerrett
> > > > Director of Marketing
> > > > Eclipse Foundation
> > > > 613-224-9461 ext. 227
> > > > blog: ianskerrett.wordpress.com
> <http://ianskerrett.wordpress.com/ >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > modeling-pmc mailing list
> > > > modeling-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx <mailto: modeling-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > >
> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/modeling-pmc
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > modeling-pmc mailing list
> > > > modeling-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:modeling-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > >
> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/modeling-pmc
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > __________________________________
> > > > Jean Bézivin - ATLAS Group (INRIA & LINA) - University of Nantes -
> > > > 2, rue
> > > > de la Houssinière
> > > > 44322 Nantes cedex 3 - France
> > > > tel. +33 2 51 12 58 13 - fax. +33 2 51 12 58 12 - cell.+33 6 14 32
> > > > 22 36
> > > > - e.mail: Jean.Bezivin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > <mailto:Jean.Bezivin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx >
> > > > http://www.sciences.univ-nantes.fr/lina/atl/ -
> Skype: jbezivin
> > > > ---------------------------------------
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > modeling-pmc mailing list
> > > > modeling-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:modeling-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > >
> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/modeling-pmc
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > __________________________________
> > > > Jean Bézivin - ATLAS Group (INRIA & LINA) - University of Nantes -
> > > > 2, rue de la Houssinière
> > > > 44322 Nantes cedex 3 - France
> > > > tel. +33 2 51 12 58 13 - fax. +33 2 51 12 58 12 - cell.+33 6 14 32
> > > > 22 36
> > > > - e.mail: Jean.Bezivin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > <mailto:Jean.Bezivin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx >
> > > > http://www.sciences.univ-nantes.fr/lina/atl/ -
> Skype: jbezivin
> > > > ---------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > __________________________________
> > > > Jean Bézivin - ATLAS Group (INRIA & LINA) - University of Nantes - 2,
> > > > rue de la Houssinière
> > > > 44322 Nantes cedex 3 - France
> > > > tel. +33 2 51 12 58 13 - fax. +33 2 51 12 58 12 - cell.+33 6 14 32 22
> 36
> > > > - e.mail: Jean.Bezivin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:Jean.Bezivin@univ-
> > > nantes.fr>
> > > > http://www.sciences.univ-nantes.fr/lina/atl/ - Skype:
> jbezivin
> > > > ---------------------------------------
> > > >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > modeling-pmc mailing list
> > > > modeling-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/modeling-pmc
> > > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > modeling-pmc mailing list
> > modeling-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/modeling-pmc
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> modeling-pmc mailing list
> modeling-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx
> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/modeling-pmc
>
>
