Re: [m2m-iwg] m2m-iwg Digest, Vol 1, Issue 17

["andypiperuk@xxxxxxxxx" <andypiperuk@xxxxxxxxx>]

Hi Werner

Well I can't speak for Pachube of course, but I do know the guys over
there a little bit as we have all been big supporters of the Homecamp
community (homecamp.org.uk - it kicked off in London a few years ago
and has spread from there). They've certainly thought about MQTT in
the past but as you say, it's not part of their platform at the moment
and I don't know what their priorities might be in terms of adding
this kind of support now that they are owned by LogMeIn. I personally
think that it would be a great addition but "I would say that wouldn't
I" :-)

I can certainly see ways in which MQTT / Paho could be reused by other
Eclipse projects. In fact, it is used in some Eclipse-based IBM
products already.

One interesting thing that was posted yesterday was the idea of using
MQTT from LotusScript
https://tingenek.wordpress.com/2011/11/30/mqtt-with-lotus-notes/ - the
author points out that he uses MQTT within an Ant task for tracking
builds etc - this seems like a really nice idea as well.

Andy

On Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 00:10, Werner Keil <werner.keil@xxxxxxx> wrote:
> Andy,
>
> Thanks a lot for sharing the article.
> A lot of interesting links and information. With the MQ background you also
> may be involved in or at least informed about JMS 2.0 at JCP?
>
> Now that MQTT was made available by IBM, I wonder what long established M2M
> and IoT portals like Pachube think about it?
> So far its API (see http://api.pachube.com/v2/) uses HTTP, but instead of
> Web Services, or XML (though that's one option for some cases) mostly relies
> on the compact protocols like JSON already used by many Social Networks on a
> variety of target platforms including Mobile.
>
> An Eclipse project previously archived, TPTP was presented by its new
> caretaker Verit at Eclipse DemoCamp Kaiserslautern last week.
> Worth mentioning here, because what they demonstrated are use cases for TPTP
> that are far more on a service or message level (they did a live demo of a
> test for a distributed chat service in the Cloud) then other projects like
> Jubula or RAT from all I know about them. Thus, for Test Driven M2M there
> could be interesting synergies between the M2M projects already existing or
> still proposed and TPTP.
>
> Werner
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: <m2m-iwg-request@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <m2m-iwg@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 6:00 PM
> Subject: m2m-iwg Digest, Vol 1, Issue 17
>
>
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>> Today's Topics:
>>
>>  1. Re: m2m-iwg Digest, Vol 1, Issue 13 (andypiperuk@xxxxxxxxx)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2011 19:21:32 +0000
>> From: "andypiperuk@xxxxxxxxx" <andypiperuk@xxxxxxxxx>
>> To: m2m-iwg@xxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: Re: [m2m-iwg] m2m-iwg Digest, Vol 1, Issue 13
>> Message-ID:
>> <CAC2T6VB020=af4fFUGRCJQFK5T9y61E=+vYpaD4bup7u3hkqBg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>
>> Hi
>>
>> My first post, too - about time I got this sorted out - sorry... Gmail
>> was helpfully hiding all the list email in a label I didn't notice...
>> now fixed!
>>
>> Thanks for the comments, JB, and welcome. I tend to agree that some of
>> the phrasing in the three part article was not entirely helpful or
>> clear either, I spent about an hour on the phone with the writer and
>> topics like security and topologies / basic TCP/IP were dominant so it
>> may not have ended up with the strongest content from the perspective
>> of beginners.
>>
>>> The comparison to http didn't make a lot of sense,
>>
>>
>> I've spoken about this before, and it can be a source of contention!
>> At a high level I only speak about MQTT compared to HTTP to point out
>> the relative widespread use and availability of HTTP but its
>> relatively poor fit to the M2M / sensor feed space as a verbose and
>> unreliable synchronous protocol. I realise that it is not a direct
>> comparison anyway in terms of the purpose of the protocol. Take a look
>> at the video and slides from my talk at the PubSub Huddle for more on
>> this http://mqtt.org/2011/09/pubsub-huddle or you could try the talk I
>> gave at LinuxConf Australia back in January
>> http://lanyrd.com/2011/linuxconfau/scght/
>>
>>> I was hoping this article would provide a "theory of operation" for MQTT,
>>> which I found lacking in the spec. What is the expected use of the
>>> protocol?
>>
>>
>> Hopefully the talks about give some context there. It's well-suited to
>> drip-feeds of data or small commands between devices, typically
>> headless or non-UI type sensors and embedded systems - but it can also
>> be very effective in mobile scenarios due to low bandwidth, memory,
>> CPU and battery costs.
>>
>>> The article says "it was not designed for messaging but facebook is
>>> experimenting".  Great - so what WAS it designed for? Unfortunately this
>>> article did not help. Any pointers there?
>>
>>
>> Yes, that statement was extremely confusing. I believe I actually said
>> that it was not designed to be a replacement / competitor to an
>> enterprise messaging model like JMS, WebSphere MQ etc etc. And he then
>> conflated that with Facebook Messenger as an application.
>>
>> It was designed originally for industrial SCADA-type systems, sensors
>> and embedded systems, back in 1999 in the days of GPRS, low bandwidth
>> satellite links and dial-up where bandwidth was at a premium and
>> connections were often lossy. It's an effective, simple,
>> publish-and-subscribe messaging model which works really well in those
>> environments and also scales to larger systems very effectively, but
>> the engineering principle remains that the API should be simple, and
>> the messages should be as small and efficient as possible.
>>
>> I hope that answers some of the questions - I very much hope we can
>> get some more background information on mqtt.org soon, and I'd also
>> like to get some nice introductory tutorial materials ready as the
>> code hits the Paho repository.
>>
>> Apologies for any confusion - I didn't have final editorial control
>> over the articles from RWW but I'm happy to clarify where I can!
>>
>> Andy
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 17:00,  <m2m-iwg-request@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>
>>> Send m2m-iwg mailing list submissions to
>>> ? ? ? ?m2m-iwg@xxxxxxxxxxx
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>>> ? ? ? ?http://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/m2m-iwg
>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>> ? ? ? ?m2m-iwg-request@xxxxxxxxxxx
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>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>> than "Re: Contents of m2m-iwg digest..."
>>>
>>>
>>> Today's Topics:
>>>
>>> ? 1. RWW article (Joseph Biron)
>>> ? 2. Re: RWW article (Mike Milinkovich)
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 1
>>> Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 06:43:53 -0600
>>> From: Joseph Biron <jbiron@xxxxxxxxx>
>>> To: "m2m-iwg@xxxxxxxxxxx" <m2m-iwg@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> Subject: [m2m-iwg] RWW article
>>> Message-ID: <CAF253FA.1C195%jbiron@xxxxxxxxx>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>>>
>>> Hello all, I am new to this list. First post.
>>>
>>> What do you all think about this RWW article
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.readwriteweb.com/hack/2011/11/ibms-andy-piper-negotiating-th.php
>>>
>>> I actually found many of the statements in the article strangely phrased,
>>> or not entirely logical. The comparison to http didn't make a lot of sense,
>>> strange comment about intelligence vs. autonomy, etc. I'm wondering if the
>>> reporter mixed up some of Andy Piper's comments.
>>>
>>> I was hoping this article would provide a "theory of operation" for MQTT,
>>> which I found lacking in the spec. What is the expected use of the protocol?
>>> The article says "it was not designed for messaging but facebook is
>>> experimenting". ?Great ? so what WAS it designed for? Unfortunately this
>>> article did not help. Any pointers there?
>>>
>>> P.S. Is this the only mailing list related to M2M on eclipse? This one is
>>> for the working group, but is there another more specific list for Paho and
>>> Koneki?
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> JB
>>>
>>> ___________________________________________
>>> Joseph Biron (Axeda Corporation) {
>>> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?title: Sr Director, Product Innovation,
>>> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?contact: [508.446.5439 ,
>>> jbiron@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:jbiron@xxxxxxxxx>],
>>> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?web: [www.axeda.com<http://www.axeda.com/>,
>>> developer.axeda.com<http://developer.axeda.com/>,
>>> @bironology<http://twitter.com/bironology>]
>>> }
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -------------- next part --------------
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>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 2
>>> Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 07:51:11 -0500
>>> From: "Mike Milinkovich" <mike.milinkovich@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> To: "'m2m Industry Working Group'" <m2m-iwg@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> Subject: Re: [m2m-iwg] RWW article
>>> Message-ID: <00e801cca9de$93fa73c0$bbef5b40$@eclipse.org>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>>
>>> Joe,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Welcome!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Not sure if you've seen it, but Andy Piper's blog post, and the links
>>> included at the end might provide some assistance.
>>>
>>> http://andypiper.co.uk/2011/11/04/mqtt-goes-free-a-personal-qa/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I will let Andy and others more qualified comment on the RWW article.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> There are project-specific mailing lists and forums.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Koneki:
>>>
>>> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/koneki-dev
>>>
>>> http://www.eclipse.org/forums/index.php/f/221/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Paho is still in the project proposal phase, so it's lists and forums
>>> have
>>> not yet been set up.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: m2m-iwg-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:m2m-iwg-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] On
>>> Behalf Of Joseph Biron
>>> Sent: November-23-11 7:44 AM
>>> To: m2m-iwg@xxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Subject: [m2m-iwg] RWW article
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hello all, I am new to this list. First post.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What do you all think about this RWW article
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.readwriteweb.com/hack/2011/11/ibms-andy-piper-negotiating-th.php
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I actually found many of the statements in the article strangely phrased,
>>> or
>>> not entirely logical. The comparison to http didn't make a lot of sense,
>>> strange comment about intelligence vs. autonomy, etc. I'm wondering if
>>> the
>>> reporter mixed up some of Andy Piper's comments.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I was hoping this article would provide a "theory of operation" for MQTT,
>>> which I found lacking in the spec. What is the expected use of the
>>> protocol?
>>> The article says "it was not designed for messaging but facebook is
>>> experimenting". ?Great - so what WAS it designed for? Unfortunately this
>>> article did not help. Any pointers there?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> P.S. Is this the only mailing list related to M2M on eclipse? This one is
>>> for the working group, but is there another more specific list for Paho
>>> and
>>> Koneki?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> JB
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ___________________________________________
>>>
>>> Joseph Biron (Axeda Corporation) {
>>>
>>> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?title: Sr Director, Product Innovation,
>>>
>>> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?contact: [508.446.5439 , jbiron@xxxxxxxxx],
>>>
>>> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?web: [www.axeda.com <http://www.axeda.com/> ,
>>> <http://developer.axeda.com/> developer.axeda.com,
>>> <http://twitter.com/bironology> @bironology]
>>>
>>> }
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -------------- next part --------------
>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> m2m-iwg mailing list
>>> m2m-iwg@xxxxxxxxxxx
>>> http://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/m2m-iwg
>>>
>>>
>>> End of m2m-iwg Digest, Vol 1, Issue 13
>>> **************************************
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Andy Piper | Farnborough, Hampshire (UK)
>> blog: http://andypiper.co.uk ? | ? skype: andypiperuk
>> twitter: @andypiper ?| ?images: http://www.flickr.com/photos/andypiper
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> m2m-iwg mailing list
>> m2m-iwg@xxxxxxxxxxx
>> http://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/m2m-iwg
>>
>>
>> End of m2m-iwg Digest, Vol 1, Issue 17
>> **************************************
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>
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-- 
Andy Piper | Farnborough, Hampshire (UK)
blog: http://andypiper.co.uk   |   skype: andypiperuk
twitter: @andypiper  |  images: http://www.flickr.com/photos/andypiper