I've had the opportunity to assist to a presentation of Spagic and I
must admit I was very interested by what it covers. I think that it
could be the missing link between everything when you want to have in
a top-down SOA approach and already have chosen what will be your
backend (JBI, Mule, ...). It seems to me that the STP-IM is a nice
idea and should be able to support very different use cases with
quite some work.
It's great news that both projects are OK to collaborate. The switch
from STP-IM to JWT meta-model and vice versa should be sufficient for
a first step. But for me both projects should work more closely. What
I find interesting for spagic could be the WAM part of JWT. As a
matter of fact, Spagic already supports some kind of deployment and
monitoring but most of it is done through their web application.
Could be interesting to be able to :
* deploy and debug step by step the processes
* do the monitoring using a tool like Eclipse. And for this part, it
may be interesting to have the WAM part usable as a RCP application.
For STP-IM, I haven't looked at how the model is done but don't you
think it could be interesting to have the platform specific parts of
the model represented as marks so that those platform specific things
end up in something like an independant layer that could be applied
or not on the Platform independant model ?
On Jan 3, 2008 7:15 PM, Marc Dutoo <marc.dutoo@xxxxxxxxxxx
Hi Adrian, Florian
What a highly interesting succession of emails !
I'm all the more sorry I couldn't participate to it (my holidays
have hold this against me)
Anyway, thanks for all who did ;)
Nevertheless, it clarifies major elements concerning STP-IM and its
interactions with JWT, and I personally very much agree with
that has been said here.
To sum it up, STP-IM properties play the same role as
STP BPMN Ed.'s format, i.e. they are to be used to provide whatever
source format specific information might be useful in a given
transformation to another target format. This implies they are
not only to the source or target format, but to the very
algorithm that is used to transform the one into the other,
"at worst" there is a risk of "noodle plate" or exponential property
I believe reducing and managing this problem is of the highest
importance in JWT and in STP-IM as well, as Adrian proposed in
paragraph : "It might be a good idea to properly document and
the properties that are used in different transformations. This
people can easily use them when adding other transformations...". I
think the answer is a combination of proper guidelines (ex. property
naming guidelines) for writing transformations, overall methodology
(project organisation, documentation) and why not a bit of
to ease and unify a source or target format's most recognized and
Here is what I've thought about for JWT in order to tackle this
(it may obviously be useful for STP-IM) :
on the side of methodology and tests :
* definition of a set of meaningful (especially important
the "Business" part in BPM ) samples that cover as much BPM features
(XOR, subprocesses...) as possible. Possibly, definition of "unit
samples", but those would be harder to delineate at a truly
* one dev subproject per transformation, each with its own
algorithms, and its own version of all default samples, and more if
* a single common jwt-samples subproject, where are gathered and
consistently merged samples from as many as possible
The idea is to have ex. a single set of BPMN samples, a single set of
XPDL samples, a single set of JWT samples, a single set of BPEL
and that all transformations (ex. BPMN2JWT, JWT2XPDL, JWT2BPMN...
including reverse ones) work using the same samples.
* source or target format specific guidelines, along with the
"officially recognized" properties for this format. Those are
by transformation implementors who have a working transformation
doesn't break the existing list and common jwt-samples or / and in
agreement with implementors of already existing transformations using
"officially recognized" properties.
* common guidelines to transforming to and from the JWT model,
including default advised property / annotation/ ... naming.
enriched by format specific guidelines contributors, with the
the others. NB. there is no "officially recognized" properties at
level, since it should be the JWT model.
Obviously, those last two should be made available as public and
date as possible (wiki, web site...).
on the side of architecture :
* extended JWT model using ex. STP BPMN-like EAnnotations or STP
* using ATL for transformations (as for now)
I'm also thinking of a mechanism of templating transformations
* to ease their development, including testing against
* to ease and unify the use of "officially recognized"
each source and target format (without forbidding to add others)
I really believe the key to long term success is to at the same time
keep a strong consistency within a growing set of core
and ease the development of new transformations as well as their
contributions of new "officially recognized" properties.
Any feedback welcome !
Adrian Mos wrote:
> Hi Florian,
> You are right in thinking that the intermediate model is not just
> used for one transformation between BPMN and ServiceMix in two
> It is a generic means of moving information between different
> and platforms and currently we have the support for
> between BPMN, BPEL and ServiceMix.
> The question you are raising about the generality of property
> definitions is a good one. Basically you are asking how if the
> is generic, can you define things that all downstream
> can understand. The simple answer is, somebody must put them there
> with the shared understanding of the needs of the target. The IM
> ALLOWS the definition of properties with specific semantics but
> not specify the semantics of each set of properties. This is the
> price for generality, you can't have a model that is both generic
> and specific at the same time, and we didn't want to provide the
> union of all the elements of the supported metamodels in the IM.
> So, somehow, the information about how to map concepts from BPMN to
> JBI (for example) must be put in the IM. And here is the choice we
> made: the concepts that are general enough to be useful in a
> of situations (such as binding, or step, or service) are directly
> represented as elements in the IM. The other concepts, specific to
> one technology or editor, are injected using the properties.
> have rightly noticed, from the BPMN editor we already populate the
> properties needed to go from BPMN to JBI or BPEL. This is a choice
> that allows very good integration of editors using standard
> points of BPMN and the IM. Since all the information for JBI can be
> put in the properties directly from the BPMN editor, we are
> directly generate JBI. However for BPEL, some information must
> be added using the BPEL editor, which is why this editor must be
> opened and used before being able to completely generate the
> executable BPEL (Andrea correct me if I'm wrong here).
> So you already see two approaches for putting non-standard
> generic enough) information in the IM, needed for particular
> transformations. One is by directly defining the properties
> source editor, the other by adding specific information in the
> editor. You can also imagine using an intermediate editor for
> when generating SCA deployable artefacts. You can use BPMN to
> describe a process, open the SCA editor to add and modify SCA
> specific information and finally generate the running SCA
> So, while the IM allows the definition of properties that can have
> different semantics under different contexts, it only standardises
> some elements, the ones deemed generic enough (and this is of
> work in progress as we'll keep improving this generic set to
> correspond to the needs of STP). Again, the semantics of the
> properties is in the hands of the transformation developers,
> that specify how to move to and from the IM and different editors.
> It might be a good idea to properly document and classify the
> properties that are used in different transformations. This way,
> people can easily use them when adding other transformations
> result in artefacts generated for editors already having
> transformations (to or from the IM). This and especially the
> description of the way to add transformations to/from the IM are
> important for the understanding and adoption of the IM and will be
> done as soon as possible.
> Hope this clarifies things a bit...
> Happy New Year! :)
> On Dec 28, 2007, at 10:29 AM, Florian Lautenbacher wrote:
>> Hi Adrian, hi Andrea,
>> thanks a lot for the clarification about the STP IM. Yes, we
>> looking forward to work with you. Currently we have some
>> transformations between BPMN and JWT resp. XPDL and JWT, but after
>> that is
>> finished we are looking forward to work on a mapping STP IM
>> One last question: you say that STP IM is a transporter model
>> model as I understand it), so I only need transformations from say
>> BPMN to
>> STP IM and from there to e.g. ServiceMix Assembly. But how do
>> that my
>> first transformation from BPMN to STP IM needs to write specific
>> such as "interface", "method call" or "participant" that ALL
>> transformations (to ServiceMix, to BPEL, to XPDL, to whatever)
>> where to look for? Adrian said that STP IM could be described
>> "intersection" between other relevant standards.. And that's
>> good! But
>> then there needs to be a mechanism or naming convention for the
>> and added properties, every transformation should take care of and
>> stick to
>> in order to have several model transformations (from BPMN to
>> JWT to STP IM, from STP IM to BPEL, from STP IM to SCA, etc.)
>> working after
>> each other, am I right?
>> Or is the "transporter model" thought of as a model simply
>> transformation from BPMN to ServiceMix, but this
transformation has two
>> steps inside!? But what would be the use of such a transporter
>> model? So I
>> don't think its like that.
>> Thanks for this last answer and a happy new year 2008 to all
>> Best regards,
>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>> Von: jwt-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
>> bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx>] Im
>> Auftrag von Adrian Mos
>> Gesendet: Samstag, 22. Dezember 2007 12:53
>> An: Florian Lautenbacher; Andrea Zoppello
>> Cc: Oisin Hurley; Java Workflow Toolbox; Adrian Skehill
>> Betreff: [jwt-dev] Re: STP IM and JWT metamodel
>> Hi Florian,
>> Andrea gave you the detailed answers for your questions, so I just
>> want to
>> say that if you're looking for help with transformations you can
>> count on us. So if you have any questions about transforming
>> elements from
>> JWT to STP-IM or the other way around, feel free to fire them
>> the STP
>> mailing list, you'll get an answer quickly.
>> Also, to follow up on what Andrea said and what I noted
>> STP-IM is a generic "transporter" model, intended to bridge the
>> variety of
>> SOA editors in STP. So, the semantics of properties to different
>> can differ based on the transformation that is going to use them.
>> The idea
>> is that we do not try to offer all the semantics in the IM, rather
>> just the
>> means to attach it, so that we can keep a high level of generality
>> still preserving the most important SOA concepts as top-level.
>> Looking forward to working with you guys, Best wishes, Adrian.
>> On Dec 21, 2007, at 11:36 AM, Andrea Zoppello wrote:
>>> See the comments inline.
>>> Florian Lautenbacher ha scritto:
>>>> Hi Adrian, hi Andrea,
>>>> thanks for your helpful clarification about the metamodel of
>>>> I now had a closer look at the metamodel in your SVN and it
is (in my
>>>> much better designed than the one that is shown on your web
>>>> In fact
>>>> the core concepts are very similar to the core metamodel of JWT
>>>> (which can be found on ). In STP IM you got a Process which
>>>> contains * Steps and * Transitions. Each step has a name, a
>>>> description, a number of sourceTransitions and
>>>> well as several observableAttributes. You also got
>>>> with subclasses like SplitControl or JoinControl. There can
>>>> Transitions or TransitionsUnderCondition. And (nearly?)
>>>> a configurable
>>>> Now looking at the JWT metamodel it is very much alike: here
>>>> everything is a ModelElement. There are ActivityNodes which are
>>>> connected via ActivityEdges (using source, target, in and
>>>> same cardinality as sourceTransitions, targetTransitions
etc. in STP
>>>> IM). There can be several types of ActivityNodes: one would
>>>> Action (probably a Step in
>>>> IM) or it
>>>> could be a ControlNode such as a ForkNode or a JoinNode. An
>>>> ActivityEdge might have a Guard (making it a
>>>> "TransitionUnderCondition") whereas the Guard is specified in a
>>>> GuardSpecification (with only a proprietary notation allowed).
>>>> Regarding your description of Properties and
>>>> guess that data that is necessary for execution (which might
>>>> been added to BPMN and shall be transformed into BPEL e.g.)
>>>> as a property to the relevant step, am I right?
>>> For example for a Step that is configured with Service
>>> ServiceBinding [HTTP-InputBindingComponent] the properties
>>> driven by the HTTP-InputBindingComponet, So the step will have
>>> properties like:
>>> and so on.
>>> Quite different is the concept of relevant data:
>>> Relevant data are extracted when the process is executed,
>>> expression on messages ( exchanged by endpoint in the case of
Jbi ) or
>>> variable in the case of ( BPEL).
>>> An example of relevant data is customerID extracted by /RECORD/
>>> Thanks for clarification about the owner attribute. Yes, I
>>>> about a participant or role than about an owner. Is this
data ( e.g.
>>>> which is
>>>> available in a swimlane or pool in BPMN) then added as a
>>>> right now to each Step?
>>> As i say in previous post we'e not yet provided in the stp
>>> intermediate model the concept of participiant role.
>>> BTW i think that we could support this in BPMN editor in two
>>> 1) Using the lane ( ant this will add some additional
property on the
>>> step, or better it will configure a particular
>>> RolebAssignedStep, HumanTaskStep )
>>> 2) Get a view with a participiant list that we could drag
anbd drop on
>>> the activities
>>> We cannot use the BPMN pool concept beacuse a pool in the im
>>> in to a process.
>>>> I agree with Adrian and Marc that a first step would be
>>>> transformation from JWT to STP IM (and the other way round).
>>>> However, since
>>>> the metamodels are quite similar, this should not be so
hard. Here at
>>>> JWT we need to discuss who will be responsible for this
>>>> somebody of STP might be able to assist us here!?
>>> You're welcome. Ask what you want???
>>>> I am still wondering how you are planning to include the
>>>> from one metamodel in a way that it is clear in a next
>>>> step where it should go. So, if I specify the owner of a
step in a
>>>> pool or lane in BPMN, how is this information kept in STP IM
so I can
>>>> work with that when generating e.g. BPEL or XPDL-code? I
>>>> need some predefined values as properties that both model
>>>> transformations use!? Or will there be a query language
(such as RQL
>>>> or SPARQL) where you can find the "semantics" of the property?
>>>> Best regards and looking forward to some more fruitful
>>> Intermediate Model is a very generic model so you could have
>>> situations where some properties ( for example of the step )
>>> important by code generator A and others will be need by code
>>> generator B.
>>> The concept is that IM bring you the information in a very
>>> way, than is responsibility of specific code generator to
>>> that information in something executable.
>>> To bring you an example, now i'm working in generating servicemix
>>> service assembly applications from intermediate model, and
>>> codegenerator plugins that knows ( for example how to
>>> units, how to make cfg files and so on .... ).
>>> I don't know if it's clear, if you've some doubt please write me.
>>>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>>>> Von: Andrea Zoppello [mailto:andrea.zoppello@xxxxxx
>>>> Montag, 17. Dezember 2007 10:15
>>>> An: Florian Lautenbacher
>>>> Cc: Adrian Skehill; Adrian Mos
>>>> Betreff: Re: Current state of STP IM?
>>>> Sorry for the late response but i'm just come back from
>>>> See comments inline
>>>> Adrian Skehill ha scritto:
>>>>> Florian Lautenbacher wrote:
>>>>>> I am wondering what the current state of the STP
>>>>>> is? Is the version on the Wiki  up to date?
>>>> I think version on the wiki is not updated. The version that
>>>> going to commit will be the really the first version.
>>>>>> If so, I am curious why a step is part of a process, but the
>>>>>> transition is not?
>>>>>> And, on the other hand, why there is only one edge between
>>>>>> and a transition with cardinality *. In many other
>>>>>> UML activity diagrams) there are always two edges between
>>>>>> (=ActivityNode in UML) and a transition (=ActivityEdge in
>>>>>> UML) specifying that a transition has exactly two ends
>>>>>> of 1 at each edge)?
>>>> In the version that we're going to commit a process will
have a set
>>>> of steps and a set of transitions. A transition wil have a
>>>> step and a target step then in the A step there will be
>>>> relations a relation called sourceTransitions 1.* ( all
>>>> for which the step is a source step ) and a realtion called
>>>> targetTransition ( all transition for whcih the step is target )
>>>>>> How are the conditions at TransitionUnderCondition
>>>>>> these boolean conditions connected with AND, OR, XOR and
NOT? Or is
>>>>>> this open to each implementation (BPMN, SCA, JBI, etc.)?
>>>> The transition under condition will have a "Condition" (
>>>> abstract entity ) where a condition could be an
>>>> ( a condition expressed in some language Xpath, groovy, or a
>>>> condition on header properties "PropertyCondition".
>>>>>> Do only Transitions have ObservableAttributes? How about
>>>>>> that are specified at a step?
>>>> In the actual version of the Intermediate Model we've
>>>> relation between Observable Attribute and Step ( 1..* each step
>>>> could have one or more observable attribute ).
>>>> By the way what's important is to clarify the difference between
>>>> "ObservableAttribute" and "Property" of a Step.
>>>> Properties are information needed to configure the step in a
>>>> particular runtime,and the properties set depends by
>>>> Observable attribute are data that will be extracted when
>>>> will be executed to be visualuzed and monitored, by
>>>>>> Does a process or a step has no owner, but only a service?
>>>> A process is a subclass of service so process could have owner.
>>>> What's important is to make distinct the concept of "Owner"
>>>> concept of "Participiant/Actor/Role" as we mean when we
>>>> workflow and in general process that require "human task".
>>>> At the moment we've not in the model the concept of
>>>> for the support of worflow concept, but in the future we're
>>>> introduce something about.
>>>> Basically ( it's just an idea that we need to discuss with
>>>> ) we'll introduce the concept of role, and a subclass of
>>>> ( let me say RoleAssignedStep or HumanTaskStep ) where we
>>>> relation beteween a step and a role.
>>>> For "Owner" instead we mean the provider of a service (
process ) as
>>>> it is in service registry ( UDDI ) world.
>>>> But this part is not complete yet.
>>>>>> Looking forward to your answers,
>>>> Feel free to contact me if you need other information.
>>>>>> Florian Lautenbacher
>>>>>> -JWT project lead-
>>>>>>  http://wiki.eclipse.org/STP_Internal_Model_Discussion
>>>>> Hi Florian,
>>>> Andrea Zoppello
>>> *Andrea Zoppello*
>>> <www.spagoworld.org <http://www.spagoworld.org>>
>>> Spagic Architect
>>> Research & Innovation Division
>>> *Engineering Ingegneria Informatica S.p.A.
>>> Corso Stati Uniti, 23/C - 35127 Padova - Italy
>>> Phone: +39-049.8692511 Fax:+39-049.8692566
>>> *www.eng.it <http://www.eng.it>
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