Re: [e4-dev] e4 tools build moving to Luna?

[Marco Descher <marco@xxxxxxxxxx>]

I second Wim’s opinion. For me the application model editor is the one tool that definitely belongs to PDE since the
switch to Eclipse 4. The application model editor is also quite extensible with the editors extension point, so I don’t
think that there would be a lack of „development freedom“ trying new things, as the changes can be realized outside the
„core". I hardly use the other tools, so can’t speek for them!

atb,
marco

An 14. Februar 2014 at 15:55:20, Wim Jongman (wim.jongman@xxxxxxxxx) schrieb:
>  
> The question is, do we want to graduate the tools without full  
> NLS and
> without testcases and documentation.
>  
> My 2 cents: I am happy with the current state of the model editor  
> and would
> not mind to graduate that. If we graduate "as is" then we get a lot  
> more
> feedback from the community. We could even build something in  
> the model
> editor to install the rest of the tooling (from incubation) on  
> request.
>  
> About documentation: Lars has documented almost everything  
> so there is no
> direct need for "official" documentation this instance. However,  
> in time, I
> think we need to provide "official" documentation from Eclipse.  
> If Lars
> wants to donate some of his work to become official (and hosted  
> from
> eclipse.org) then this would be awesome. I would not be surprised  
> that the
> bylaws don't allow to point to Lars' site for documentation.  
>  
> Also we would publish no API.
>  
> In other words, I am +1 for graduating the model editor if we still  
> have
> time.
>  
> Cheers,
>  
> Wim
>  
>  
> On Fri, Feb 14, 2014 at 2:59 PM, Jonas Helming > > wrote:
>  
> > Hi,
> >
> > I never received an answer to this mail, does no one have a opinion  
> on
> > this? Is anyone still interested in this topic?
> >
> > Best Regards
> >
> > Jonas
> >
> >
> > Am 20.01.2014 19:35, schrieb Jonas Helming:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > for me the relavant questions are:
> >
> > 1. Which bundles to we want to graduate and move?
> >
> > IMHO, the Application Model Editor and the e4 project wizards  
> would be
> > most important and already a huge improvement of the situation.  
> Everybody
> > who wants to create a native e4 applications needs this editor.  
> > Far behind, I would consider th CSS editor, but I think it would  
> be
> > acceptable to still install this one.
> >
> > 2. Where do we want to move it?
> >
> > Until now, most people mentioned, that the e4 tools should be  
> moved to
> > PDE. I personally would prefer to move them to the platform.  
> The editor is
> > really closely connected to the platform, it even accesses  
> some internal
> > API. The editor must also evolve in parallel to the Application  
> Model.
> > Finally I think the developers of the plattform are more connected  
> to the
> > tools.
> >
> > 3. What do we need to do to make this happen?
> >
> > I think we should identify the shortest path to a good result.  
> >
> > - I don't think it is essential that the editor provides a public  
> API.
> > Extending it is a rather advanced use cases. If people extended  
> a
> > non-graduated tool in the past, I think they can live with internal  
> API or
> > SPI in the future. From an API stability point of view, this does  
> not make
> > a difference.
> > - We need to check, which bundles must be moved. I am worried most  
> about
> > org.eclipse.e4.tools.services, it contains parts, which  
> are not only used
> > by the Application Model editor. So we might need to move some  
> things
> > around.
> > - We need to define our goals for documentation and test coverage  
> >
> > Finally I do not think this will slow down the evolution of the  
> tools. If
> > people want to contribute, they can still do. In turn, I think  
> it makes it
> > easier and more visible to create native e4 applications.
> >
> > What do you think?
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Jonas
> >
> > P.S.: Doug, thanks fro pushing this forward, I think an opinion  
> from a
> > user point of view is very valuable for this discussion
> >
> >
> >
> > Am 20.01.2014 18:18, schrieb Doug Schaefer:
> >
> > These tools are equals to the plugin.xml and *.product editors.  
> Not sure
> > what you are getting at below. I'm pretty sure users who need  
> these tools
> > really don't get it.
> >
> > Doug.
> >
> > From: David M Williams  
> > Reply-To: E4 Project developer mailing list  
> > Date: Monday, January 20, 2014 at 10:30 AM
> > To: E4 Project developer mailing list  
> > Subject: Re: [e4-dev] e4 tools build moving to Luna?
> >
> > Sorry if this is obvious to others, but is this tool intended  
> to be a
> > "delivery" of the "e4/sdk" product? In the sense it has APIs  
> and/or could
> > be extended? Or it is intended for use only by "Eclipse committers"  
> in
> > making Eclipse IDE?
> >
> > I ask since the "requirements" are quite a bit different for  
> the two. If
> > simply a "releng tool" it could be provided similar to how we  
> deliver the
> > "releng tools" from Platform (which provides copyright tools,  
> and a
> > validator for MANIFEST and POM versions (and some old cvs 'release'  
> tools
> > not used much these days). While the description is needs improvement,  
> I
> > think it's pretty clear it is not intended to provide API or be  
> extended
> > (therefore "compatibility", etc. is not considered that important  
> ... we
> > tell people to use the same version built with their dev. environment.  
> >
> > But, if meant to be extendable, and provide API, etc, then there  
> are
> > higher criteria.
> >
> > I should add, it would be "hard" to "build with the SDK" because  
> it
> > depends on some emf components (such as emf.edit.ui?) which  
> is not apart of
> > the "base" EMF we get "early" from EMF.
> >
> > Hope these comments help inform the final decision.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From: John Arthorne  
> > To: E4 Project developer mailing list ,  
> > Date: 01/19/2014 11:11 AM
> > Subject: Re: [e4-dev] e4 tools build moving to Luna?
> > Sent by: e4-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > ------------------------------
> >
> >
> >
> > If parts of the e4 tools graduated into PDE, then all active contributors  
> > to those tools would be granted PDE commit rights as part of the  
> > graduation/restructuring. We did the same thing with commit  
> rights on other
> > parts of e4 that graduated into the platform. So I don't think  
> commit
> > rights will be a problem at all. It does of course require active  
> > committers to keep maintaining it wherever it ends up.
> >
> > John
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Lars Vogel  
> > To: E4 Project developer mailing list ,  
> > Date: 01/18/2014 05:02 AM
> > Subject: Re: [e4-dev] e4 tools build moving to Luna?
> > Sent by: e4-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > ------------------------------
> >
> >
> >
> > I personally like that we can adjust the tooling as needed. PDE  
> seems very
> > inactive at the moment.
> >
> > But test, better Javadoc and fixing the outstanding bugs is  
> good in
> > general, no matter if the tools get officially released or not,  
> so no need
> > to hold such activities of.
> >
> > Best regards, Lars
> >
> > Am 18.01.2014 09:40 schrieb "Wim Jongman" <*wim.jongman@xxxxxxxxx*>:  
> >
> > There are things missing in the model editor and in the tooling  
> in
> > general. Most notably unit tests, javadoc and user documentation.  
> We need
> > to fix these before a release can be considered.
> >
> > I am also happy to join a dedicated team that tackles this. So  
> that makes
> > two. Who wants to join us?
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Wim
> >
> >
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