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Re: [cdt-dev] FW: New topic in forum C / C++ IDE (CDT), called Why can't it "just work"?, by Rob Lewis

Very interesting topic. We at HSR have seen students struggle with IDEs and of course also with CDT for years, actually more than ten. Fortunately, we’re at a university of applied science with students usually have practical experience in IT and are used to stuff not working as they expected. I got the subjective impression that CDT improved significantly over the years. In the current C++ lecture and the corresponding exercise sessions we encounter very few obstacles implied by CDT. Part of it might be that we have learned to prepare the students better for the IDE we force on them, as we have learned the reappearing problems pretty well. But eventually there are fewer pitfalls than before. In some cases we have added functionality on top of CDT to lower the entry-level, for example we have a plug-in for configuring new C++ projects automatically for C++14 (setting compiler and indexer options).


For relieving the obstacles for setting up the whole environment (installing a compiler) we prepare a virtual machine which should provide everything needed in the exercises. Students working in their own environments sometimes struggle with the compiler installation, especially getting a version compliant with the most recent C++ standard version that works correctly in most cases, was hard to find in the past. To overcome that CDT would need to be shipped with a native compiler for the supplied platforms (Linux, MacOS and Windows). Or even provide its own means for compiling code for some platform-specific infrastructure. With our current thesis projects (topics template instance visualization, implementation of concepts and C++14 constexpr evaluation – which actually requires an almost complete C++ interpreter) I can say that we are very far from that yet. Actually, we hardly able to cope with the pace of the C++ standard evolution with the CDT infrastructure, thus I don’t think such an approach feasible. For this specific problem I’d rather suggest a bundle with a specific compiler and a good tutorial for setting up ones environment, “First steps with CDT”. Actually, I think this is a problem only students and programmers new to C++ encounter. This obviously must not affect the proficient programmer negatively in any way. After all CDT is flexible regarding the underlying toolchain.


Another thing programmers/students proficient with JDT expect much more from the IDE while developing than CDT currently can provide. Most deficiencies in aspects like error reporting and development support are inherited by the language. While I think it would fairly reasonable to implement better analysis and automated refactorings for “proper” C++ code, there is always at least one very weird case, enabled by the preprocessor, obsolete language features or just because the standard says so, that also has to be considered when implementing such features. In a perfect world we could write code in CDT and receive all problems reported on the fly like the compiler would report them – best with a sensible problem description and a resolution for fixing the problem. While Codan is a pretty good framework for this task, we don’t have all information required for complete error reporting in the index yet. Especially, template instantiation (afaik) stops at after the first level. So far the information available is what is needed for navigation and refactoring. And that’s ok as a certain level of abstraction offers us better performance and responsiveness in the IDE, which I personally think is crucial. Here I actually see potential for improvement, which was beneficial for newcomers and experts alike.


A C++ programmer eventually needs to know what happens behind the scenes. In CDT that point is encountered at the latest when working with multiple dependent projects. In my opinion even beginners should work with an IDE as it can help you making progress much faster and I think that’s a crucial point when learning something. Of course the IDE must not be another hurdle on that path, adding another layer of problems and things that can go wrong. As I said in the beginning of my wall of text, I think CDT currently is better than ever in that aspect. And with some good introductory tutorials most of such obstacles could be avoided. If they could be integrated into the IDE it was even better.


Regards

Thomas



Von: cdt-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx <cdt-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx> im Auftrag von Fred Cooke <fred.cooke@xxxxxxxxx>
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 21. Oktober 2015 11:38
An: CDT General developers list.; Jesper Eskilson
Betreff: Re: [cdt-dev] FW: New topic in forum C / C++ IDE (CDT), called Why can't it "just work"?, by Rob Lewis
 
Last time I checked, IDEs were for getting serious work done more quickly, not a my-first-code environment. First timers should be running g++ from the command line or a makefile as that's pretty much the first thing you need to learn to get anything going. It's not that hard, either. gcc hello.c ; ./a.out

Just as I'd laugh at someone claiming to be a pro and using vim in a professional context, I'd strongly recommend that a beginner does exactly that with a plain editor, and learns the syntax through trial and error and gains a deep understanding of the basics.

Also, C++ is hardly a good language to cut your teeth on, it's more like taking a spin around the nurburgring in your corolla with learner plates. Throwing a kid in a google self driving car for a few laps won't help.

Anyway, my point was to try and get Doug to cheer up, CDT is f***ing awesome. All software has issues. All software always will have some issues. CDT was great when I first tried it, and it's 10 times better now than then. Software is complex, and takes time, that's no less true when volunteers are writing it. Chin up, Doug! You're thoroughly appreciated in this corner, as are all of your colleagues around the globe.

Regards,

Fred.

On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 10:19 PM, Jesper Eskilson <jesper.eskilson@xxxxxxx> wrote:


On 2015-10-21 06:13, Fred Cooke wrote:
I've been using CDT since 2008 or so when it was still a baby, and I've been loving it ever since. Not knowing what a toolchain is? Really? This is something you have to learn. What's a build tool? What's continuous integration? What's source control? None of these are obvious if you know nothing.


C++ is a nightmare to learn without having to battle the tooling around it. Yes, eventually professional C++ developers need to know what a toolchain (etc, etc) is, but getting hit by these things while trying to learn the basics of C++ will almost certainly scare of a fair share of people who could become good programmers in time. I know that I've given up on learning a number of "interesting" languages/tools/frameworks simply because the initial threshold was too painful.

/Jesper


I've had a number of people come to me somewhat surprised over the years exclaiming "I tried CDT for eclipse the other day, and it's not bad!" in a surprised tone. To which I reply, Yes, I've been using it for many years, I know.

Could "you" do better? Sure, software can always be improved! Should you feel unhappy when some ungrateful bastard like that tells you your hard work is a pile of shit? Hell no! If I'd listened to all of those people every time they said it, I'd have pulled my efforts from my FOSS project years ago. But I've not, because screw the haters! :-)

As you were!

Fred.

On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 4:19 PM, Doug Schaefer <dschaefer@xxxxxxx> wrote:
The request I was referring to was to "take pity on beginning C++ programmers". When they install the C++ IDE for Eclipse it should just work, right out of the box. It should make sure a toolchain is installed so they don't need to learn what a toolchain is. That feeling they have frustrated by Eclipse is something that will stick with this poor student forever and that impacts they're perception of Eclipse for C++ as they enter the workforce.

It's comments like theirs that make me want to rip the C++ IDE off of the Eclipse download site. It's horrible for true beginners. We can do better.

Doug.


From: cdt-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx [cdt-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] on behalf of Alena Laskavaia [elaskavaia.cdt@xxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2015 10:45 PM
To: CDT General developers list.
Subject: Re: [cdt-dev] FW: New topic in forum C / C++ IDE (CDT), called Why can't it "just work"?, by Rob Lewis

So use clang on Mac or some-how redistribute gcc?
We can also generate code using our indexer :) I am sure hello world we can manage.
They also want managed build which we are trying to kill... "The symbol could not be resolved" is because from missing a library
and unless we managing the build we cannot help them.
But yes it would be awesome if toolchain and builder comes with CDT and you don't even know it exists.

On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 11:28 AM, Doug Schaefer <dschaefer@xxxxxxx> wrote:
This is an awesome request.

From: "forums-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxx" <forums-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Tuesday, October 20, 2015 at 10:40 AM
To: Doug Schaefer <dschaefer@xxxxxxx>
Subject: New topic in forum C / C++ IDE (CDT), called Why can't it "just work"?, by Rob Lewis

Subject: Why can't it "just work"? Author: Rob Lewis Date: Tue, 20 October 2015 14:40
My son began his CS education writing Java with Eclipse. I've actively followed his progress, in part to update my own programming knowledge.

Now he (we) have moved on to C++, and after installing the CDT, Eclipse's ease of setup and use seem to have ended in a morass of confusing options and obscure (and apparently wrong) settings that prevent writing and running the simplest of programs without hours of often fruitless research trying to figure out what needs to be changed ("The symbol cout could not be resolved"? Really? What, please, is a "toolchain"? Could we get a more helpful error message than "syntax error"?)

All these options and settings might be valuable to very senior programmers who appreciate such fine-grained control of their IDE, but it seems to me there is a great need for a Mac student-level C++ package that "just works" without all the drama. (I actually don't know if other OS versions of Eclipse have the same problems, but I suspect they may.)

Is there any possibility that Eclipse's developers will take pity on beginning C++ programmers?
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Jesper Eskilson Development Engineer
IAR Systems AB

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