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Re: [science-iwg] IDataSet in EAVP

Hi Wayne,

Thanks for the input. That seems to indicate my current attempt at splitting up the org.eclipse.dawnsci.analysis.dataset and related plug-ins to peel off the first part that is more widely of interest is the right start. We'll reconvene here on this mailing in a couple of days when I have something concrete, but for now this subset of datasets only has dependencies on things which are already in Orbit. As previously mentioned, getting newer versions of Apache Commons Maths would be great, but I think we can do so much with what is already approved.

Jonah



On 2 September 2015 at 18:38, Wayne Beaton <wayne@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Yes. You can do a release that includes only some parts. The IP Team needs to have approved all IP included in those pieces that are released. This includes any third-party libraries that are used by those bits of code.

(I probably should have made that more clear in my earlier response)

Wayne


On 02/09/15 01:18 PM, Jay Jay Billings wrote:

Thanks Wayne!

If I read this correctly, we need to do a formal release of the parts we are planning to use, but not the whole project?

Jay

On Sep 2, 2015 11:27 AM, "Wayne Beaton" <wayne@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
A mature project can use released bits (i.e. code and binaries produced for a formal release) from a project in the incubation phase.

Naturally, all of the used code must have check-in approval from the IP Team (i.e. is subject to the IP Due Diligence Process).

Any downloads that include incubating code must be labeled as such (e.g. "contains incubating components").

HTH,

Wayne

On 01/09/15 12:43 PM, Jay Jay Billings wrote:
Matt,

Let's ask the Foundation. I have CC'ed the IP team on this response.

Dear EMO IP Team,

Could you please help us determine what, if any, are the IP issues associated with an Eclipse project using code from an incubating project? As the email discussion below details, we would like to use the IDataSet plugins from DAWNSci, which is incubating, in the Eclipse Advanced Visualization Project once it is up and running. As I understand it, this type of scenario requires special care from an IP perspective since incubating projects may face several issues on that front.

Jay

On Tue, Sep 1, 2015 at 12:10 PM, <Matt.Gerring@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Jay,

 

What are the IP issues? How do official releases vs. other kinds of releases help? J

 

Now that the two plugins are in DAWNSci* does the rest of DAWNSci have to pass IP checking? That should be ok, there is not much which is non-eclipse and the CQ’s are raised. If EAVP was waiting for release on DAWNSci it should be possible to do that with little risk.

 

Matt

 

*(Which state of affairs I was pushed into somewhat, if you remember I did say that they should be a community project.)

 

From: science-iwg-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:science-iwg-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jay Jay Billings
Sent: 01 September 2015 16:44


To: Science Industry Working Group
Subject: Re: [science-iwg] IDataSet in EAVP

 

Matt,

The biggest concern, in my mind, with using it from DAWNSci is not the license, but the IP issues. If you are planning an official release of DAWNSci, then all those issues (eventually) go away. However, if not, then it isn't clear how we could "legally" (procedural sense) use it.

Jay

On Sep 1, 2015 11:12 AM, <Matt.Gerring@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Jay,

 

>> the whole community, me included, really wants to be able to use IDataSet with EAVP

Perfect! What is the blocker in using it right now?

 

I suggest to put it in EAVP from where it is, it is there on the eclipse github and EPL licensed. Import statements can be changed later and eclipse projects can depend on one another after all.

 

Tim suggested sciDataset, so perhaps the eventual package/project could be org.eclipse.scidataset? But before we do that, I would like to quantify the need from the community of its location.

 

Given that it is two plugins, it should be pretty easy to create a project for it faster than EAVP and ensure that EAVP can make its targets for releasing with the Eclipse train; if that is the blocker.

 

Best Regards,

 

Matt

 

 

 

From: science-iwg-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:science-iwg-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jay Jay Billings
Sent: 01 September 2015 14:56
To: Science Industry Working Group
Subject: Re: [science-iwg] IDataSet in EAVP

 

Matt,

Will you please clarify your response and be a little more definitive please? My feeling is that the the whole community, me included, really wants to be able to use IDataSet with EAVP. I am essentially trying to figure out if this is something that we can plan and push for as part of our 1.0 release in 6-12 months or if it needs to wait until a 2.0 release sometime after that.

So, are you saying that you don't know what you're going to do with it yet? Or are you saying that you want to propose a new "data structures" project that we could wait on?

Even a statement of "I need more time to investigate this" would be fine, just as long as you say it unequivocally, because then I can put it on the potential feature set for the EAVP 2.0 release next year and leave it out of 1.0.

Jay

 

On Tue, Sep 1, 2015 at 6:04 AM, <Matt.Gerring@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Hello Jay and other folks,

 

>> Alex noted that you felt like the "moving IDataSet" option would make EAVP a competitor to DAWNSci.

To clarify, I said was that at the point where EAVP does not use IDataset, it becomes a competitor to DAWNSci J This is because the numerics become less compatible but the scope is the same. If the numerics are compatible it becomes a collaborator with a similar scope.

 

I think our vision for IDataset is not a visualization specific project but something more general, just as numpy is for python. IDataset is two plugins with few dependencies. Suggestions about where it sits not specific to any single use case (visualization, numerics, scripting, etc) are welcome.

 

If we do move, we might need a name like numjy, jDataset etc. for the project, again suggestions welcome! There would also be some Diamond internal work for me to consider and agree, likely not a blocker although I might ask external people register specific interest in how they will reuse it and why they want it moved.

 

I also reported in the meeting that IDataset is complete but can be faster for some operations. When/if speed issues arise, there are a number of strategies which can be used already or new code added J It can deal with data much larger than available memory, which is a powerful way at looking at large data on small computers.

 

Matt

 

From: science-iwg-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:science-iwg-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jay Jay Billings
Sent: 31 August 2015 20:41
To: Science Industry Working Group
Subject: Re: [science-iwg] IDataSet in EAVP

 

Everyone,

I should clarify that EAVP is short for "the Eclipse Advanced Visualization Project" for those who haven't heard of it before. It is the viz project that we have been discussing for awhile.

Jau

On Aug 31, 2015 2:01 PM, "Jay Jay Billings" <jayjaybillings@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Matt,

I met with Alex this morning and he told me how awesome the Norway meeting was. He also told me that there is broad support for using IDataSet in EAVP. I would like to discuss how we can move forward on this. I strongly support the use of IDataSet in EAVP and I really want to see a tight integration because it is technology that would be very valuable to what we are doing at ORNL and, I imagine, other institutions in this group. There is a very big technical question that we need to answer though: Where is IDataSet going to be released?


In one of our previous steering committee calls you said that DIAMOND has no intention of doing a "full Eclipse release" of DAWNSci since your goal with the project was only to release the source code, not binaries. That makes it very challenging to use anything in DAWNSci in any other SWG project because it lacks that Eclipse "technical goodness" that many of our projects depend on.

So, if you don't mind, let's start there. What are your release plans for DAWNSci? If you are planning an official, Eclipse.org release then I think we can use IDataSet as it is and just wait on your release. However, if not or if not reasonably soon, then I think you should seriously consider contributing it to EAVP so that the community can use it and help develop it with you.

Alex noted that you felt like the "moving IDataSet" option would make EAVP a competitor to DAWNSci. I don't personally see that since no other Eclipse projects are competitors to DAWNSci. I urge you not to look at the project that way either. It is meant to be an open, community effort that we all work on - and use - together.

Please let me know what you think and let's keep this discussion in the open so that we can get good thoughts and ideas from the community. I'm certain there is a workable path forward on this.

Jay


--

Jay Jay Billings

Oak Ridge National Laboratory

Twitter Handle: @jayjaybillings

 

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Oak Ridge National Laboratory

Twitter Handle: @jayjaybillings

 

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This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential, copyright and or privileged material, and are for the use of the intended addressee only. If you are not the intended addressee or an authorised recipient of the addressee please notify us of receipt by returning the e-mail and do not use, copy, retain, distribute or disclose the information in or attached to the e-mail.
Any opinions expressed within this e-mail are those of the individual and not necessarily of Diamond Light Source Ltd.
Diamond Light Source Ltd. cannot guarantee that this e-mail or any attachments are free from viruses and we cannot accept liability for any damage which you may sustain as a result of software viruses which may be transmitted in or with the message.
Diamond Light Source Limited (company no. 4375679). Registered in England and Wales with its registered office at Diamond House, Harwell Science and Innovation Campus, Didcot, Oxfordshire, OX11 0DE, United Kingdom
 


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This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential, copyright and or privileged material, and are for the use of the intended addressee only. If you are not the intended addressee or an authorised recipient of the addressee please notify us of receipt by returning the e-mail and do not use, copy, retain, distribute or disclose the information in or attached to the e-mail.
Any opinions expressed within this e-mail are those of the individual and not necessarily of Diamond Light Source Ltd.
Diamond Light Source Ltd. cannot guarantee that this e-mail or any attachments are free from viruses and we cannot accept liability for any damage which you may sustain as a result of software viruses which may be transmitted in or with the message.
Diamond Light Source Limited (company no. 4375679). Registered in England and Wales with its registered office at Diamond House, Harwell Science and Innovation Campus, Didcot, Oxfordshire, OX11 0DE, United Kingdom
 


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Oak Ridge National Laboratory
Twitter Handle: @jayjaybillings


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The Eclipse Foundation
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          Europe 2015

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