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Re: [ide-dev] Benefits of integration with code server and new generic editor for average Eclipse user

Mickael,

You wrote that
>IMO, there are much more users not using Eclipse IDE because of average TypeScript support or non-existing C# support than because of those missing completions on lambdas.
Do you really think that .net developers will start downloading Eclipse as crazy just after you add C# editor? I know many .net developers and they will laugh hearing such statement. If you can't run VS on Red Hat Linux there is MonoDevelop for this and you can run VS Code on Linux. This may be my personal problem but I do not get why would people choose Eclipse for C# development. Really don't get it. Are you going to port all of the additional functionality they (VS) have beyond code editor as well? Debugger, mobile development tools (to replace Android development tools) and so on.


By reusing existing code server for TypeScript you by definition will get the same features as VS Code already has. This is the best case scenario you can get from this. So why should anyone bother to use Eclipse if they already have same features in VS Code and VS? Why not to use VS Code or WebStorm instead starting from right now? In any case you will be offering the same features in best case.


I agree with one statement:
--
>We cannot say the current state is good for everything and will remain forever.
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Yes, this is what I was telling that there are issues even for JDT. And they will never be solved by adding new editors for new not yet existing (or just different) languages.


The bottom line is that your answer is very clear. And it is:
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Some of Eclipse contributors have goals that go beyond the current Eclipse user base. The current user base isn't necessarily what drives all of us.
--
plus
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so far, it seems like those issues are not top-priority of any contributor according to their vision of the IDE.
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clear and honest.

Serhiy

On Thu, Jun 30, 2016 at 2:44 PM, Mickael Istria <mistria@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On 06/30/2016 01:04 PM, Serhiy wrote:
I do understand that new editor can get TypeScript support by means of tsserver. At the same time there are multiple existing TypeScript plugins for Eclipse and one of them already uses tsserver:
This plugin is somehow a lesson to learn. Client-server is a very good approach to developing dev tools. The idea now is to make it easier to consume consistently inside Eclipse IDE rather than expecting developers to repeat the same work over and over again.
TypeScript editor inherit from the JSDT editors, which requires a lot of other plugins to work and that provide many useful extensions. One of the current goals from Eclipse IDE point-of-view is to provide this extensibility in a lower layer that anyone could more easily reuse without depending the the JSDT editor stack.
The work of making an editor generic and extensible enough was already done in WebTools SSE editors. We're trying to move it to Platform.

It is possible to get support for C# in Eclipse.
How? Do you know decent C# tools for Eclipse IDE?
And I am absolutely positive that this is not the most needed feature across current Eclipse user base.
Some of Eclipse contributors have goals that go beyond the current Eclipse user base. The current user base isn't necessarily what drives all of us.

I understand that others (non-Eclipse) can benefit from converting JDT to code server. But for Eclipse IDE and JDT itself it will hardly give any benefits.
Some Eclipse contributors also have goals that go beyond just the Eclipse IDE ;)
I mean that all understand that Microsoft will not contribute any features to Eclipse or JDT.
Never say never. I guess a couple of years ago, someone wrote "Microsoft will never contribute .NET under MIT license". See where we are now.
Why would they help to develop any free Java based project after they killed robovm and do not support Java in their "Azure Functions" (just for reference PHP and Bash are supported).
Those proposals regarding generic editors and language services are not meant to attract more help from anyone in particular. They're mostly meant to provide a faster and factorized way to develop features in all IDEs/editors at once.
With or without Microsoft contributing to Eclipse IDE or JDT directly, the Eclipse IDE can take advantage of the proposed approach of Language Services.

Eclipse already has plugins for all major languages
correction: all *current* major languages and file formats. And even so, some major languages of the software industry are still missing good support. We cannot say the current state is good for everything and will remain forever.
so rewriting them to be able to expose same functionality via code server by definition will not add anything few to Eclipse IDE.
There is no plan to rewrite anything AFAIK. The proposals so far are about supporting a new editor/set of services to implement support for new features.
Imagine tomorrow, someone contributes an awesome language server for Go; with an unbeatable completion. Then if we already have the framework to consume it, this can be adopted trivially and Eclipse IDE can take advantage of it ASAP. If we're not ready for it, then all competitors will adopt it, they will have a critical advantage on Eclipse IDE, Eclipse IDE will loose users.
Remember algorithmic: Greedy decisions are usually not the optimal one. Focusing only on the current state without vision may lead to irrelevancy.

At the same time there are requests for Eclipse core features which are not addressed for years. For example, even now after more that 2 years after Java 8 was officially released (not counting time it was in developement) Eclipse content assist functionality still has no support for lambda _expression_ completions. Other example is that https://www.eclipsecon.org/na2016/session/faster-index-java-or-cdt-pays-its-debt-jdt is developed outside of Eclipse. Eclipse Android tools are not very actively maintained.
Every contributor is free to work on what is the most important for them. So far, it seems like those issues are not top-priority of any contributor according to their vision of the IDE.
However, there are programs by the Eclipse Foundation and some member organization that basically allows one to "buy a feature" by a regular development contract. If someone is willing to pay for that, they'll probably find some contributors to do it...

Don't get me wrong. It's open source project and you decide what to implement. And I really don't want to offend anyone. I am just struggling to understand what this can give to average Eclipse IDE user. And it is quite sad for me to realize there is a chance that Eclipse can get yet another TypeScript editor or even C# support before having that (reported in 2014) issue with lambda auto completion support addressed. Â
IMO, there are much more users not using Eclipse IDE because of average TypeScript support or non-existing C# support than because of those missing completions on lambdas.
Contributors cannot be in every fight at once. This generic editor and language server seems to be the fight many contributors are interested in winning now. IMO, it's a good tactical choice, but your mileage may vary, and you and all other contributors are free to work on other topics.

Cheers,
--
Mickael Istria
Eclipse developer at JBoss, by Red Hat
My blog - My Tweets

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