Re: [ide-dev] what about doing less?

[Denys Digtiar <duemir@xxxxxxxxx>]

I tend to agree with Konstantin. I am a regular user and I like when
my tools just work out of the box. TBH vim is an exception but maybe
that is the reason why I am not using it on a regular basis.

In terms of doing less, what about removing CVS integration from
default packages? How many people is still using it? I have never used
it myself and never heard about anybody using it on commercial
projects. I understand that I am not representative, but I can see
Foundation running a poll on the website to get more broad feedback.


> Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2013 18:13:49 -0700
> From: "Konstantin Komissarchik" <konstantin.komissarchik@xxxxxxxxxx>
> To: "'Discussions about the IDE'" <ide-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: Re: [ide-dev] what about doing less?
> Message-ID: <00ca01ced1e8$a12afd10$e380f730$@komissarchik@xxxxxxxxxx>
> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="us-ascii"
>
> My point is that will not work. The user reaction is not going to be
> positive. A common description of Eclipse is already "some assembly
> required" while other IDEs work out of the box. Turning "some assembly" into
> "a lot of assembly" isn't going to improve user perception of Eclipse.
>
> - Konstantin
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ide-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ide-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] On
> Behalf Of Fabian Steeg
> Sent: Friday, October 25, 2013 5:42 PM
> To: Discussions about the IDE
> Subject: Re: [ide-dev] what about doing less?
>
> I also prefer a feature rich IDE, and I'm happy enough with some parts of
> Eclipse to view the others as challenges on the way to the ultimate IDE. So
> personally, I totally agree. It just bugs me that people seem to hate
> Eclipse for what it's trying to be, instead of loving it for what it is and
> looking forward to what it might become. The things that really shine and
> attract users and contributors seem to get missed. The platform nature,
> customizability, and plugin ecosystem are some of these things, so maybe
> it's better to actively get users into that, instead of trying to hide it.
>
> Cheers,
> Fabian
>
> On 26.10.2013, at 00:38, Konstantin Komissarchik
> <konstantin.komissarchik@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>>> So as another crazy idea, we could make the Platform (plus
>>> Marketplace
>> client) the
>>> default download, and focus on making it easy to build the IDE that's
>> right for you
>>> from there (one part of that could be the changes to the Marketplace
>> mentioned by
>>> Marcel in the other thread).
>>
>> This sort of approach is something that a few power users would
>> appreciate, but a typical user is just not interested in finely tuning
>> their IDE composition. I have seen too many frustrated questions from
>> users regarding why their Eclipse doesn't understand XML files (for
>> instance), when Netbeans has no issue with them. No amount of
>> improvements to Eclipse Marketplace is going to make users feel good
>> about having to manually pick the technologies that they want to use and
> then hope that they install without issues.
>>
>> Rather than trying to ignore performance issues by including less, a
>> good item for the IDE working group to tackle is interop between
>> projects when many projects are installed concurrently. There are
>> performance issues that are not evident when only a few plugins are
>> installed. There are UI pollution issues. Like, why do we need a dozen
>> views to show external resources, like app servers, databases, source
>> repos, task repos, etc. when other IDEs can get away with a single view.
>>
>> - Konstantin
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ide-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ide-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx]
>> On Behalf Of Fabian Steeg
>> Sent: Friday, October 25, 2013 3:23 PM
>> To: Discussions about the IDE
>> Subject: Re: [ide-dev] what about doing less?
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I really like the general idea of doing less. I think a lot of grief
>> around Eclipse today is rooted in one of its actual strengths: a
>> large, open ecosystem.
>>
>> Some like using advanced tools, and gladly work around their bugs and
>> limitations, but others prefer to stick to a rock solid text editor
>> and the terminal instead of using a feature rich editor that hangs
>> while you're typing. So why not give people that option?
>>
>> On my current machine, the latest stable Platform build (4.4M2) starts
>> up in
>> 5 seconds something. That's not quite the 2 seconds mentioned by
>> Martin yet, but it's pretty close, and it's a start. As an easily
>> achievable goal, we could avoid adding more to that than really
>> required by a given user. And this is not just about startup time, but
>> overall user experience, like tools running background tasks etc.
>>
>> So as another crazy idea, we could make the Platform (plus Marketplace
>> client) the default download, and focus on making it easy to build the
>> IDE that's right for you from there (one part of that could be the
>> changes to the Marketplace mentioned by Marcel in the other thread).
>>
>> The open platform and focussed tools that made Eclipse great 10 years
>> ago are still here, but maybe seeing them has become more difficult
>> over the years, and is almost impossible for new and casual users today.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Fabian
>>
>> On 24.10.2013, at 08:57, Max Rydahl Andersen <manderse@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 11:20:00AM +0200, Mickael Istria wrote:
>>>> On 10/23/2013 09:38 AM, Max Rydahl Andersen wrote:
>>>>> Dart editor "solves" it by removing anything but Dart required
>> dependencies.
>>>> FWIW, It's already what Tycho does with tycho-surefire-plugin by
> default:
>> it generates the minimal application for a test to run. So we don't
>> need anything new to have something similar working.
>>>
>>> Not following why that is relevant ?
>>> Tycho's minimal application is rarely actually usable by users
>>> because it doesn't take into account add-ons that aren't related to
>>> your specific
>> tests.
>>>
>>>>> I think for this specific issue (performance) putting together
>> plan/resources to revive or reimplement focus on performance would
>> help alot.
>>>> Performance tests by themselves are generally a bit tricky to
>>>> analyze,
>> but coupling them with a profiler (yourkit-maven-plugin) could make
>> them much more relevant.
>>>> https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=420149
>>>
>>> Eclipse already have or at least had plenty of performance tests
>>> which
>> junit output usecase specific performance numbers instead of more
>> generic profiler output.
>>>
>>> There were tests for "opening workspace", "load of eclipse", import
>>> of project etc. which were then tracked to not have to big of a %
>>> difference
>> over time.
>>>
>>> Not saying having easy access to profiler data but doing it
>>> generically will probably not solve end-user problem faster IMO.
>>>
>>> /max
>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Mickael Istria
>>>> Eclipse developer at JBoss, by Red Hat <http://www.jboss.org/tools>
>>>> My blog <http://mickaelistria.wordpress.com> - My Tweets
>>>> <http://twitter.com/mickaelistria>
>>>
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