Actually, this discussion should probably go to the cross projects list. It’s not clear to me who has the power to make this decision. Does the EPP have any power over this? It can keep the BREE at 7 and deliver broken packages, but that’s probably not
a practical path.
Doug
Unfortunately Oomph isn’t a full solution here as you need to be able to run Oomph, which is built on the same foundation as Eclipse. Oomph might
catch and handle some cases, but not everything.
- Konstantin
One more thing… Most of the Java-version issues that we’ve seen in our support cases could be remedied by enhancing Eclipse launcher to prompt user
to select a compatible JVM. That is, the issue isn’t so much that users can’t have a particular Java version, but rather that they have multiple versions and Eclipse chooses the wrong one, or they simply don’t know that they need to install a new version.
- Konstantin
Well Oomph takes care of that particular problem (although IMO the UI for it still could use a bit of tweaking); I suspect by the time Neon ships, Oomph will be in full stride as the most-endorsed way of getting Eclipse (I'm pretty sure that's the way Ed and
Eike would like to see it be :-). That of course would mean the EPP packages take on a diminished role to the general user community.
Eric
What’s wrong with the answer that developers in environments that can’t have Java 8 have to stay on the Mars service line and rely on long term support
organizations for bug fixes?
Another thing to note is that by the time that Neon ships, Java 9 will be just around the corner.
- Konstantin
Valid point, Doug. It gives me a little relief from me concerns, but doesn't totally eliminate them.
There are pretty easy workarounds for those users who can’t upgrade their Java yet somehow found a way to install Eclipse on their machines. The embedded jre in the Eclipse directory still works.
You'd think we're dealing with a user base, being primarily developers, who could easily deal with such workarounds. But time has shown that assumption isn't as reliable as one might
think. One problem is that Oracle makes a portable (non-installer) JDK harder and harder to obtain. Eclipse itself doesn't need a typical Windows installer, but JDK does.
Eric
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Hi Eric,
In this context I think we should look at the current user base. Marcel (cc) recently gave same real data about the current user base of Mars. @Marcel, please feel free to provide better numbers, but IIRC approx.
75% of the error reporters using Eclipse Mars are using already Java 8.
--
Eclipse Platform UI and e4 project co-lead
CEO vogella GmbH
Haindaalwisch 17a, 22395 Hamburg
Amtsgericht Hamburg: HRB 127058
Geschäftsführer: Lars Vogel, Jennifer Nerlich de Vogel
USt-IdNr.: DE284122352
Fax (032) 221739404, Email:
lars.vogel@xxxxxxxxxxx, Web:
http://www.vogella.com
I'm not an EPP package maintainer or committer, but I'd like to provide some user-community perspective on this.
Java 8 is just over 1 year old, and it's well known that many people and (especially) corporations are slow to adopt new versions. If Eclipse packages were to require Java 8, I can pretty much guarantee, based on many years' experience supporting the community,
that there will be many complaints and confused users. In fact, in a corporate environment where users literally can not update their own workstations, I'd say it's highly likely that users would be unable to use Neon, or at least have to jump through corporate
IT hoops to get it working.
I'm not knocking Java 8 (at least not here), I'm just trying to keep everyone focused on the users. Just because we, as tool developers, are enamored and in love with the latest toys doesn't mean we can justify pushing them down the throats of our large user
base.
Eric
And we’re talking about Neon which releases in a year. When Java 8 will be two years old.
Valid point, Doug. It gives me a little relief from me concerns, but doesn't totally eliminate them.
There are pretty easy workarounds for those users who can’t upgrade their Java yet somehow found a way to install Eclipse on their machines. The embedded jre in the Eclipse directory still works.
You'd think we're dealing with a user base, being primarily developers, who could easily deal with such workarounds. But time has shown that assumption isn't as reliable as one might think. One problem is that
Oracle makes a portable (non-installer) JDK harder and harder to obtain. Eclipse itself doesn't need a typical Windows installer, but JDK does.
Eric
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Hi Eric,
In this context I think we should look at the current user base. Marcel (cc) recently gave same real data about the current user base of Mars. @Marcel, please feel free to provide better numbers, but IIRC approx.
75% of the error reporters using Eclipse Mars are using already Java 8.
--
Eclipse Platform UI and e4 project co-lead
CEO vogella GmbH
Haindaalwisch 17a, 22395 Hamburg
Amtsgericht Hamburg: HRB 127058
Geschäftsführer: Lars Vogel, Jennifer Nerlich de Vogel
USt-IdNr.: DE284122352
Fax (032) 221739404, Email:
lars.vogel@xxxxxxxxxxx, Web:
http://www.vogella.com
I'm not an EPP package maintainer or committer, but I'd like to provide some user-community perspective on this.
Java 8 is just over 1 year old, and it's well known that many people and (especially) corporations are slow to adopt new versions. If Eclipse packages were to require Java 8, I can pretty much guarantee, based on many years' experience supporting the community,
that there will be many complaints and confused users. In fact, in a corporate environment where users literally can not update their own workstations, I'd say it's highly likely that users would be unable to use Neon, or at least have to jump through corporate
IT hoops to get it working.
I'm not knocking Java 8 (at least not here), I'm just trying to keep everyone focused on the users. Just because we, as tool developers, are enamored and in love with the latest toys doesn't mean we can justify pushing them down the throats of our large user
base.
Eric
Hi,
I noticed yesterday that m2e moved to Java 8, which triggered this
request. I contacted Markus Knauer and he suggested that I should send
an email to this list to trigger the discussion about BREE for the
EPP's in Neon.
I personally think it would be great to require Java 8 as BREE for the
EPP out of the following reasons:
- Java 7 is out of public maintenance
- if the EPP's decide early that they will require Java 8, other
project will have the option to improve their code base based on Java
8
- if m2e requires Java 8, AFAIK this would bump the most important
EPP's also to Java 8.
In Platform UI I would also like to support the Java 8 Date and Time
API via Databinding, which would also bump platform to Java 8. This is
not yet implement but on our roadmap. AFAIK the Jetty webserver also
requires Java 8, which would result in a bump in the Eclipse Help
system to Java 8.
Best regards, Lars
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And we’re talking about Neon which releases in a year. When Java 8 will be two years old.
There are pretty easy workarounds for those users who can’t upgrade their Java yet somehow found a way to install Eclipse on their machines. The embedded jre in the Eclipse directory still works.
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This transmission (including any attachments) may contain confidential information, privileged material (including material protected by the solicitor-client or other applicable privileges), or constitute non-public information. Any use of this information
by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately reply to the sender and delete this information from your system. Use, dissemination, distribution, or reproduction of this transmission
by unintended recipients is not authorized and may be unlawful.
Hi Eric,
In this context I think we should look at the current user base. Marcel (cc) recently gave same real data about the current user base of Mars. @Marcel, please feel free to provide better numbers, but IIRC approx.
75% of the error reporters using Eclipse Mars are using already Java 8.
--
Eclipse Platform UI and e4 project co-lead
CEO vogella GmbH
Haindaalwisch 17a, 22395 Hamburg
Amtsgericht Hamburg: HRB 127058
Geschäftsführer: Lars Vogel, Jennifer Nerlich de Vogel
USt-IdNr.: DE284122352
Fax (032) 221739404, Email:
lars.vogel@xxxxxxxxxxx, Web:
http://www.vogella.com
I'm not an EPP package maintainer or committer, but I'd like to provide some user-community perspective on this.
Java 8 is just over 1 year old, and it's well known that many people and (especially) corporations are slow to adopt new versions. If Eclipse packages were to require Java 8, I can pretty much guarantee, based on many years' experience supporting the community,
that there will be many complaints and confused users. In fact, in a corporate environment where users literally can not update their own workstations, I'd say it's highly likely that users would be unable to use Neon, or at least have to jump through corporate
IT hoops to get it working.
I'm not knocking Java 8 (at least not here), I'm just trying to keep everyone focused on the users. Just because we, as tool developers, are enamored and in love with the latest toys doesn't mean we can justify pushing them down the throats of our large user
base.
Eric
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