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Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Neon.3 Update Problems: To Fix and How to Fix?

Hi,

New aggregation build repo can be found here:

https://hudson.eclipse.org/simrel/job/simrel.neon.3_respin.runaggregator.BUILD__CLEAN/4/artifact/aggregation/final

Please note, this repo is only temporary and will change with every new
build.

Regards,

Fred

On 25.04.2017 23:38, Jeff Johnston wrote:
> 
> 
> On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 4:10 PM, Oberhuber, Martin
> <Martin.Oberhuber@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:Martin.Oberhuber@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
> wrote:
> 
>     Ed Merks wrote:
> 
>     â If nothing requires a given bundle, I would expect that bundle to be
>     â removed from the profile, but I don't see the problematic bundles
>     being
>     â removed...
> 
>     If Iâm not mistaken, the current solution with Neon.3a is reverting
>     the problematic http bundle to the Neon.2 version; so itâs supposed
>     to be older (lower version) than Neon.3 .
> 
>     Therefore, Iâd expect that âupdatingâ from neon.3 which has the
>     newer bundle to Neon.3a which requires the older one would probably
>     ignore the older bundle and wire the newer one â unless something
>     explicitly removes / uninstalls the broken Neon.3 variant.
> 
>     Jeff, are you reasonably confident that a p2.inf command to
>     uninstall the Neon.3 bundle would only perform that operation at the
>     time the Neon.3a update is installed â and not potentially at a
>     later time?
> 
> 
> I certainly am not a p2.info <http://p2.info> expert.  After looking at
> it closer, I don't think it would work since I can't specify which
> version of a bundle to remove.  I just checked in an update to the
> Neon.3_respin branch.  It would be helpful if someone could perform a
> reaggregation so others can test it and report their findings.  If there
> are still issues, a thought would be to nail down the http reqs that
> docker.core was willing to use which might enable an update to remove
> the newer versions.  My own experimenting with updating from the broken
> Neon.3 version to the latest version I just checked in allows the EPP
> for Eclipse Committers to come up without errors in the log and to run
> Docker Tooling successfully, but I don't know all the various error
> scenarios in other plug-ins that were occurring.
>  
> 
>     I see some risk that 3rd party plugins which want to bring in their
>     own http bundle would not be able to do so because weâd uninstall
>     their payload â can we be reasonably sure that this scenario canât
>     occur, for example by specifying an exact 4-digit version in the
>     p2.inf to remove the broken bundle ?
> 
>     IMO, the âUpdate Neon.3 to Neon.3aâ workflow is less important than
>     fixing the âNeon.[012] -> Neon.3aâ workflow.
>     So if in doubt, Iâd rather not take too much risk enabling the 3 ->
>     3a update â
> 
>     Thanks,
>     Martin
>     --
>     Martin Oberhuber, SMTS / Product Owner â Development Tools, Wind River
> 
>     On 25/04/17 17:19, "cross-project-issues-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
>     <mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx> on behalf of
>     Ed Merks" <cross-project-issues-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
>     <mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx> on behalf of
>     ed.merks@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:ed.merks@xxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
> 
>         Fred,
> 
>         No I didn't try that.  It's much harder to try that.  Oomph
>     itself is
>         broken, so I can't run setup tasks.  Check for Updates finds no
>     updates
>         because I installed all the categories and their IUs don't have
>     updated
>         versions.   I tried explicitly installing Docker so that it
>     would do an
>         update, but that didn't not solve the wiring problem.  I also
>     running
>         the p2 task in an IDE with Oomph 1.8 where I can run setup tasks
>         (because Oomph's dependency on userstorage is optional in 1.8)
>     and where
>         the wiring problems also occurred so that more things got
>     updated, but
>         this also did not resolve the wiring problem.  So it's not clear if
>         updates to an already -broken IDE will fix that IDE; it doesn't
>     look so
>         promising, though I don't understand why that wouldn't work.   If
>         nothing requires a given bundle, I would expect that bundle to be
>         removed from the profile, but I don't see the problematic
>     bundles being
>         removed...
> 
>         Regards,
>         Ed
> 
> 
>         On 25.04.2017 16 <tel:25.04.2017%2016>:41, Frederic Gurr wrote:
>         > Thanks Ed.
>         >
>         > That sounds promising. Did you also test updating a broken
>     ELWMS with
>         > the new repo?
>         >
>         > I'm currently trying to reproduce the error with EPP packages,
>     but so
>         > far updating a Neon.2 package to Neon.3 (with "Check for
>     Updates") did
>         > not result in a broken MPC. Not sure what I'm missing.
>         >
>         > Regards,
>         >
>         > Fred
>         >
>         > On 25.04.2017 16:30, Ed Merks wrote:
>         >> Fred,
>         >>
>         >> Installing the Eierlegende Wollmilchsau with this additional
>     repository
>         >> in the p2 task's repository list results in an installation
>     without
>         >> wiring problems.
>         >>
>         >> The profile of the installation contains version
>     2.3.0.20170421191 of
>         >> org.eclipse.linuxtools.docker.core with is indeed the version
>     available
>         >> in
>         >>
>     https://hudson.eclipse.org/simrel/job/simrel.neon.3_respin.runaggregator.BUILD__CLEAN/3/artifact/aggregation/final
>     <https://hudson.eclipse.org/simrel/job/simrel.neon.3_respin.runaggregator.BUILD__CLEAN/3/artifact/aggregation/final>
>         >> so I think this is a good demonstration that installations
>     creation from
>         >> this repository's contents will not have the wiring problems
>     we've been
>         >> seeing in Neon.3.
>         >>
>         >> Regards,
>         >> Ed
>         >>
>         >>
>         >>> Ed,
>         >>>
>         >>> The temporary update site URL is:
>         >>>
>         >>>
>     https://hudson.eclipse.org/simrel/job/simrel.neon.3_respin.runaggregator.BUILD__CLEAN/3/artifact/aggregation/final
>     <https://hudson.eclipse.org/simrel/job/simrel.neon.3_respin.runaggregator.BUILD__CLEAN/3/artifact/aggregation/final>
>         >>>
>         >>>
>         >>> Regards,
>         >>>
>         >>> Fred
>         >>>
>         >>> On 25.04.2017 15 <tel:25.04.2017%2015>:13, Ed Merks wrote:
>         >>>> Fred,
>         >>>>
>         >>>> What update site URL contains these results?
>         >>>>
>         >>>> Regards,
>         >>>> Ed
>         >>>>
>         >>>>
>         >>>> On 25.04.2017 14 <tel:25.04.2017%2014>:28, Frederic Gurr wrote:
>         >>>>> Thanks Jeff,
>         >>>>>
>         >>>>> This is the comparison of the non-unique versions list:
>         >>>>>
>         >>>>> neon3_respin aggregation build 20.04.
>         >>>>>
>     (https://hudson.eclipse.org/simrel/job/simrel.neon.3_respin.runaggregator.BUILD__CLEAN/2/artifact/aggregation/final/buildInfo/reporeports/reports/nonUniqueVersions.txt
>     <https://hudson.eclipse.org/simrel/job/simrel.neon.3_respin.runaggregator.BUILD__CLEAN/2/artifact/aggregation/final/buildInfo/reporeports/reports/nonUniqueVersions.txt>):
>         >>>>>
>         >>>>>
>         >>>>>
>         >>>>> org.apache.httpcomponents.httpclient
>         >>>>>       4.3.6.v201411290715
>         >>>>>       4.5.2.v20161115-1643
>         >>>>>       4.3.6.v201511171540
>         >>>>>       4.2.6.v201311072007
>         >>>>> org.apache.httpcomponents.httpcore
>         >>>>>       4.3.3.v201411290715
>         >>>>>       4.4.6.v20170210-0925
>         >>>>>       4.2.5.v201311072007
>         >>>>>       neon3_respin aggregation build 25.04.
>         >>>>>
>     (https://hudson.eclipse.org/simrel/job/simrel.neon.3_respin.runaggregator.BUILD__CLEAN/3/artifact/aggregation/final/buildInfo/reporeports/reports/nonUniqueVersions.txt
>     <https://hudson.eclipse.org/simrel/job/simrel.neon.3_respin.runaggregator.BUILD__CLEAN/3/artifact/aggregation/final/buildInfo/reporeports/reports/nonUniqueVersions.txt>):
>         >>>>>
>         >>>>>
>         >>>>>
>         >>>>> org.apache.httpcomponents.httpclient
>         >>>>>       4.3.6.v201411290715
>         >>>>>       4.3.6.v201511171540
>         >>>>>       4.2.6.v201311072007
>         >>>>> org.apache.httpcomponents.httpcore
>         >>>>>       4.3.3.v201411290715
>         >>>>>       4.2.5.v201311072007
>         >>>>>
>         >>>>>
>         >>>>> So o.a.h.httpclient version 4.5.2 and o.a.h.httpcore
>     version 4.4.6 are
>         >>>>> not in the repo any more.
>         >>>>>
>         >>>>> @All: Can someone confirm that this fixes the update
>     problem (earlier
>         >>>>> version to Neon.3)?
>         >>>>>
>         >>>>> If it is confirmed to work, we have a fix for users that
>     have not
>         >>>>> upgraded to Neon.3 yet. Users that already upgraded are
>     unaffected by
>         >>>>> this. They still need to wait for a "wiring issue" fix.
>         >>>>>
>         >>>>> Regards,
>         >>>>>
>         >>>>> Fred
>         >>>>>
>         >>>>>
>         >>>>> On 21.04.2017 23:00, Jeff Johnston wrote:
>         >>>>>> Just to confirm that the change has been merged to the
>     Neon.3_respin
>         >>>>>> branch.
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>> -- Jeff J.
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>> On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 4:11 PM, Jeff Johnston
>     <jjohnstn@xxxxxxxxxx <mailto:jjohnstn@xxxxxxxxxx>
>         >>>>>> <mailto:jjohnstn@xxxxxxxxxx
>     <mailto:jjohnstn@xxxxxxxxxx>>> wrote:
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>        I have done another respin.  In this case, I
>     rebuilt the Linux
>         >>>>>> Tools
>         >>>>>>        plug-ins to use the older version
>         >>>>>>        of docker-client and its dependencies which were
>     used in
>         >>>>>> Neon.2.  I
>         >>>>>>        have back-versioned the
>         >>>>>>        Docker tooling plug-ins to 2.3.0 with the current
>     date.
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>        I have just pushed to gerrit for Neon.3_respin branch.
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>        https://git.eclipse.org/r/#/c/95501/
>     <https://git.eclipse.org/r/#/c/95501/>
>         >>>>>>        <https://git.eclipse.org/r/#/c/95501/
>     <https://git.eclipse.org/r/#/c/95501/>>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>        If no-one objects, I will merge into the branch.
>         >>>>>> Verification is
>         >>>>>>        already successful.
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>        -- Jeff J.
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>        On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 11:50 AM, Jeff Johnston
>         >>>>>> <jjohnstn@xxxxxxxxxx <mailto:jjohnstn@xxxxxxxxxx>
>         >>>>>>        <mailto:jjohnstn@xxxxxxxxxx
>     <mailto:jjohnstn@xxxxxxxxxx>>> wrote:
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>            Marcel,
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>            Since the respin didn't fix the problem, we
>     will try
>         >>>>>> reverting
>         >>>>>>            the docker-client dependency and keeping as
>     much of the
>         >>>>>> added
>         >>>>>>            Neon.3 functionality as possible
>         >>>>>>            in place and cutting another point release.  I
>     will let the
>         >>>>>> list
>         >>>>>>            know when I have something in place.
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>            -- Jeff J.
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>            On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 6:38 AM, Daniel Megert
>         >>>>>>            <daniel_megert@xxxxxxxxxx
>     <mailto:daniel_megert@xxxxxxxxxx> <mailto:daniel_megert@xxxxxxxxxx
>     <mailto:daniel_megert@xxxxxxxxxx>>>
>         >>>>>> wrote:
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>                Adding
>     eclipse.org-planning-council@xxxxxxxxxxx
>     <mailto:eclipse.org-planning-council@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>         >>>>>>               
>     <mailto:eclipse.org-planning-council@xxxxxxxxxxx
>     <mailto:eclipse.org-planning-council@xxxxxxxxxxx>> to
>         >>>>>> this
>         >>>>>>                thread.
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>                Dani
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>                From:        "Dr. Marcel Bruch"
>         >>>>>> <marcel.bruch@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>     <mailto:marcel.bruch@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>         >>>>>>                <mailto:marcel.bruch@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>     <mailto:marcel.bruch@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>>>
>         >>>>>>                To:        Cross project issues
>         >>>>>>                <cross-project-issues-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
>     <mailto:cross-project-issues-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>         >>>>>>               
>     <mailto:cross-project-issues-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
>     <mailto:cross-project-issues-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>>>
>         >>>>>>                Date:        21.04.2017 10
>     <tel:21.04.2017%2010>:17
>         >>>>>>                Subject:        Re:
>     [cross-project-issues-dev] Neon.3
>         >>>>>> Update
>         >>>>>>                Problems: To Fix and        How to Fix?
>         >>>>>>                Sent by:
>         >>>>>> cross-project-issues-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
>     <mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>         >>>>>>               
>     <mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
>     <mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx>>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>                Hi,
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>                Iâll briefly summarize the discussion we
>     had at the AC
>         >>>>>>                yesterday:
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>                Given that we donât know how the OSGI
>     resolver will
>         >>>>>> behave
>         >>>>>>                (even after Tom back-ported a fix to Neon)
>     it would be
>         >>>>>>                preferred to just have the Apache HTTP***
>     versions in
>         >>>>>> Neon.3
>         >>>>>>                that were already in Neon.2. This would to
>     some extend
>         >>>>>>                âensure" that we are "at least as as
>     stable as Neon.2â.
>         >>>>>> This
>         >>>>>>                would require us to rollback the changes
>     that introduced
>         >>>>>> the
>         >>>>>>                latest version of HTTPClient. As far as I
>     know this
>         >>>>>> would
>         >>>>>>                especially affect the Docker Tooling.
>     (maybe more
>         >>>>>> changes
>         >>>>>>                than that are needed)
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>                My question to the *Docker Tooling project
>     lead*: Is it
>         >>>>>>                possible to rollback this last minute
>     change and
>         >>>>>> postpone it
>         >>>>>>                to Oxygen for the sake of making EGit,
>     MPC, Oomph,
>         >>>>>> USS, and
>         >>>>>>                Code Recommenders work reliably again -
>     and giving us
>         >>>>>> more
>         >>>>>>                trust that we wonât get into trouble with
>     Neon.3? The
>         >>>>>>                simplest solution may be to contribute the
>     docker
>         >>>>>> tooling
>         >>>>>>                from Neon.2 in Neon.3. WDYT?
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>                Marcel
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>                On 20 Apr 2017, at 18:54, Frederic Gurr
>         >>>>>>                <_frederic.gurr@xxxxxxxxxxxx
>         >>>>>>                <mailto:frederic.gurr@xxxxxxxxxxx
>     <mailto:frederic.gurr@xxxxxxxxxxx>>> wrote:
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>                I can see
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>> org.apache.httpcomponents.httpclient_4.5.2.v20170210-0925 in
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>
>     /home/data/httpd/_download.eclipse.org/linuxtools/update-docker-2.3.1/plugins_
>     <http://download.eclipse.org/linuxtools/update-docker-2.3.1/plugins_>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>
>     <http://download.eclipse.org/linuxtools/update-docker-2.3.1/plugins
>     <http://download.eclipse.org/linuxtools/update-docker-2.3.1/plugins>>,
>         >>>>>>                but it's definitely not in the aggregated
>     repo.
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>                On 20.04.2017 18:31, Jeff Johnston wrote:
>         >>>>>>                Fred,
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>                The version of httpclient also changed in our
>         >>>>>>                update-docker-2.3.1 repo from:
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>> org.apache.httpcomponents.httpclient_4.5.2.v20161115-1643
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>                to:
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>> org.apache.httpcomponents.httpclient_4.5.2.v20170210-0925
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>                Not sure why this change isn't being seen
>     as well.
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>                -- Jeff J.
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>                On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 12:21 PM, Frederic
>     Gurr
>         >>>>>>                <_frederic.gurr@xxxxxxxxxxxx
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>> <mailto:frederic.gurr@xxxxxxxxxxx
>     <mailto:frederic.gurr@xxxxxxxxxxx>><_mailto:frederic.gurr@xxxxxxxxxxxx
>     <mailto:frederic.gurr@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
>         >>>>>>                <mailto:frederic.gurr@xxxxxxxxxxx
>     <mailto:frederic.gurr@xxxxxxxxxxx>>>> wrote:
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>                  Thanks Jeff,
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>                  I ran a SimRel aggregation build. The
>     only change I
>         >>>>>> can
>         >>>>>>                see in the list
>         >>>>>>                  of "Non Unique Versions used in
>     repository" is that a
>         >>>>>>                different version
>         >>>>>>                  of org.apache.httpcomponents.httpcore is
>     now used.
>         >>>>>> Instead of
>         >>>>>>                  4.4.4.v20161115-1643 it's now
>     4.4.6.v20170210-0925.
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>                  I compared
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>
>     _http://download.eclipse.org/releases/neon/201703231000/buildInfo/reporeports/reports/nonUniqueVersions.txt_
>     <http://download.eclipse.org/releases/neon/201703231000/buildInfo/reporeports/reports/nonUniqueVersions.txt_>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>
>     <http://download.eclipse.org/releases/neon/201703231000/buildInfo/reporeports/reports/nonUniqueVersions.txt
>     <http://download.eclipse.org/releases/neon/201703231000/buildInfo/reporeports/reports/nonUniqueVersions.txt>>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>
>     <_http://download.eclipse.org/releases/neon/201703231000/buildInfo/reporeports/reports/nonUniqueVersions.txt_
>     <http://download.eclipse.org/releases/neon/201703231000/buildInfo/reporeports/reports/nonUniqueVersions.txt_>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>
>     <http://download.eclipse.org/releases/neon/201703231000/buildInfo/reporeports/reports/nonUniqueVersions.txt
>     <http://download.eclipse.org/releases/neon/201703231000/buildInfo/reporeports/reports/nonUniqueVersions.txt>>>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>                  and
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>
>     _https://hudson.eclipse.org/simrel/job/simrel.neon.3_respin.runaggregator.BUILD__CLEAN/ws/aggregation/final/buildInfo/reporeports/reports/nonUniqueVersions.txt_
>     <https://hudson.eclipse.org/simrel/job/simrel.neon.3_respin.runaggregator.BUILD__CLEAN/ws/aggregation/final/buildInfo/reporeports/reports/nonUniqueVersions.txt_>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>
>     <https://hudson.eclipse.org/simrel/job/simrel.neon.3_respin.runaggregator.BUILD__CLEAN/ws/aggregation/final/buildInfo/reporeports/reports/nonUniqueVersions.txt
>     <https://hudson.eclipse.org/simrel/job/simrel.neon.3_respin.runaggregator.BUILD__CLEAN/ws/aggregation/final/buildInfo/reporeports/reports/nonUniqueVersions.txt>>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>
>     <_https://hudson.eclipse.org/simrel/job/simrel.neon.3_respin.runaggregator.BUILD__CLEAN/ws/aggregation/final/buildInfo/reporeports/reports/nonUniqueVersions.txt_
>     <https://hudson.eclipse.org/simrel/job/simrel.neon.3_respin.runaggregator.BUILD__CLEAN/ws/aggregation/final/buildInfo/reporeports/reports/nonUniqueVersions.txt_>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>
>     <https://hudson.eclipse.org/simrel/job/simrel.neon.3_respin.runaggregator.BUILD__CLEAN/ws/aggregation/final/buildInfo/reporeports/reports/nonUniqueVersions.txt
>     <https://hudson.eclipse.org/simrel/job/simrel.neon.3_respin.runaggregator.BUILD__CLEAN/ws/aggregation/final/buildInfo/reporeports/reports/nonUniqueVersions.txt>>>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>                  @All: is that the intended result?
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>                  Regards,
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>                  Fred
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>                  On 19.04.2017 20:21, Jeff Johnston wrote:
>         >>>>>>                Hi Fred,
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>                I have just pushed a change to gerrit:
>         >>>>>>                   _https://git.eclipse.org/r/#/c/95308/_
>     <https://git.eclipse.org/r/#/c/95308/_>
>         >>>>>>                <https://git.eclipse.org/r/#/c/95308/
>     <https://git.eclipse.org/r/#/c/95308/>>
>         >>>>>>                  <_https://git.eclipse.org/r/#/c/95308/_
>     <https://git.eclipse.org/r/#/c/95308/_>
>         >>>>>>                <https://git.eclipse.org/r/#/c/95308/
>     <https://git.eclipse.org/r/#/c/95308/>>>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>                I only changed the docker repository and
>     left the other
>         >>>>>>                Linux Tools
>         >>>>>>                features alone
>         >>>>>>                since they were only bumped as part of the
>     point
>         >>>>>> release to
>         >>>>>>                fix the
>         >>>>>>                Docker Tooling plug-ins.
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>                I assume I can merge the patch if the gerrit
>         >>>>>> verification is
>         >>>>>>                successful.  If this is wrong,
>         >>>>>>                let me know.
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>                -- Jeff J.
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>                On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 1:08 PM, Frederic Gurr
>         >>>>>>                <_frederic.gurr@xxxxxxxxxxxx
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>> <mailto:frederic.gurr@xxxxxxxxxxx
>     <mailto:frederic.gurr@xxxxxxxxxxx>><_mailto:frederic.gurr@xxxxxxxxxxxx
>     <mailto:frederic.gurr@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
>         >>>>>>                <mailto:frederic.gurr@xxxxxxxxxxx
>     <mailto:frederic.gurr@xxxxxxxxxxx>>>
>         >>>>>>                   <_mailto:frederic.gurr@xxxxxxxxxxxx
>     <mailto:frederic.gurr@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
>         >>>>>>                <mailto:frederic.gurr@xxxxxxxxxxx
>     <mailto:frederic.gurr@xxxxxxxxxxx>>
>         >>>>>>                  <_mailto:frederic.gurr@xxxxxxxxxxxx
>     <mailto:frederic.gurr@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
>         >>>>>>                <mailto:frederic.gurr@xxxxxxxxxxx
>     <mailto:frederic.gurr@xxxxxxxxxxx>>>>> wrote:
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>                  Hi,
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>                  Can you provide a patch for the SimRel
>     build (branch
>         >>>>>>                   "Neon.3_respin")
>         >>>>>>                   that references the new version?
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>                  Regards,
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>                  Fred
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>                  On 19.04.2017 17:27, Jeff Johnston wrote:
>         >>>>>>                Hi Ed,
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>                Linux tools spun a 5.3.1 release which now
>     has a 2.3.1
>         >>>>>>                   version of
>         >>>>>>                   docker
>         >>>>>>                tooling.  The Linux tools download site has
>         >>>>>>                   update-docker-2.3.1 and
>         >>>>>>                update-docker, both which have 2.3.1
>     versions of the
>         >>>>>> docker.core
>         >>>>>>                   plug-in
>         >>>>>>                and docker feature.  Not sure why you are
>     not seeing
>         >>>>>> this.
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>                -- Jeff J.
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>                On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 11:13 AM, Ed Merks
>         >>>>>>                   <_ed.merks@xxxxxxxxxx
>         >>>>>>                <mailto:ed.merks@xxxxxxxxx
>     <mailto:ed.merks@xxxxxxxxx>><_mailto:ed.merks@xxxxxxxxxx
>     <mailto:ed.merks@xxxxxxxxxx>
>         >>>>>>                <mailto:ed.merks@xxxxxxxxx
>     <mailto:ed.merks@xxxxxxxxx>>>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>> <_mailto:ed.merks@xxxxxxxxxx
>     <mailto:ed.merks@xxxxxxxxxx><_mailto:ed.merks@xxxxxxxxxx
>     <mailto:ed.merks@xxxxxxxxxx>
>         >>>>>>                <mailto:ed.merks@xxxxxxxxx
>     <mailto:ed.merks@xxxxxxxxx>>>>
>         >>>>>>                <_mailto:ed.merks@xxxxxxxxxx
>     <mailto:ed.merks@xxxxxxxxxx><_mailto:ed.merks@xxxxxxxxxx
>     <mailto:ed.merks@xxxxxxxxxx>
>         >>>>>>                <mailto:ed.merks@xxxxxxxxx
>     <mailto:ed.merks@xxxxxxxxx>>>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>> <_mailto:ed.merks@xxxxxxxxxx
>     <mailto:ed.merks@xxxxxxxxxx><_mailto:ed.merks@xxxxxxxxxx
>     <mailto:ed.merks@xxxxxxxxxx>
>         >>>>>>                <mailto:ed.merks@xxxxxxxxx
>     <mailto:ed.merks@xxxxxxxxx>>>>>> wrote:
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>                  Frederic,
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>                  There seem to have been no notes/minutes
>     taken during
>         >>>>>>                   the meeting:
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>> _https://wiki.eclipse.org/Planning_Council/April_05_2017_
>     <https://wiki.eclipse.org/Planning_Council/April_05_2017_>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>> <https://wiki.eclipse.org/Planning_Council/April_05_2017
>     <https://wiki.eclipse.org/Planning_Council/April_05_2017>>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>
>     <_https://wiki.eclipse.org/Planning_Council/April_05_2017_
>     <https://wiki.eclipse.org/Planning_Council/April_05_2017_>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>> <https://wiki.eclipse.org/Planning_Council/April_05_2017
>     <https://wiki.eclipse.org/Planning_Council/April_05_2017>>>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>
>     <_https://wiki.eclipse.org/Planning_Council/April_05_2017_
>     <https://wiki.eclipse.org/Planning_Council/April_05_2017_>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>> <https://wiki.eclipse.org/Planning_Council/April_05_2017
>     <https://wiki.eclipse.org/Planning_Council/April_05_2017>>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>
>     <_https://wiki.eclipse.org/Planning_Council/April_05_2017_
>     <https://wiki.eclipse.org/Planning_Council/April_05_2017_>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>> <https://wiki.eclipse.org/Planning_Council/April_05_2017
>     <https://wiki.eclipse.org/Planning_Council/April_05_2017>>>>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>
>     <_https://wiki.eclipse.org/Planning_Council/April_05_2017_
>     <https://wiki.eclipse.org/Planning_Council/April_05_2017_>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>> <https://wiki.eclipse.org/Planning_Council/April_05_2017
>     <https://wiki.eclipse.org/Planning_Council/April_05_2017>>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>
>     <_https://wiki.eclipse.org/Planning_Council/April_05_2017_
>     <https://wiki.eclipse.org/Planning_Council/April_05_2017_>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>> <https://wiki.eclipse.org/Planning_Council/April_05_2017
>     <https://wiki.eclipse.org/Planning_Council/April_05_2017>>>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>
>     <_https://wiki.eclipse.org/Planning_Council/April_05_2017_
>     <https://wiki.eclipse.org/Planning_Council/April_05_2017_>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>> <https://wiki.eclipse.org/Planning_Council/April_05_2017
>     <https://wiki.eclipse.org/Planning_Council/April_05_2017>>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>
>     <_https://wiki.eclipse.org/Planning_Council/April_05_2017_
>     <https://wiki.eclipse.org/Planning_Council/April_05_2017_>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>> <https://wiki.eclipse.org/Planning_Council/April_05_2017
>     <https://wiki.eclipse.org/Planning_Council/April_05_2017>>>>>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>                  I recall agreeing to provide steps for
>     reproducing the
>         >>>>>>                   problem so
>         >>>>>>                   that Thomas Watson could test if the wiring
>         >>>>>> resolution
>         >>>>>>                   fix he made
>         >>>>>>                   for Oxygen also solves the problem for
>     Neon.3.
>         >>>>>> The fact
>         >>>>>>                   that he
>         >>>>>>                   encountered "the mirroring problem"
>     didn't help in
>         >>>>>> that
>         >>>>>>                   regard:
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>> _https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=515213_
>     <https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=515213_>
>         >>>>>>               
>     <https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=515213
>     <https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=515213>>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>> <_https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=515213_
>     <https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=515213_>
>         >>>>>>               
>     <https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=515213
>     <https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=515213>>>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>> <_https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=515213_
>     <https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=515213_>
>         >>>>>>               
>     <https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=515213
>     <https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=515213>>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>> <_https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=515213_
>     <https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=515213_>
>         >>>>>>               
>     <https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=515213
>     <https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=515213>>>>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>> <_https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=515213_
>     <https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=515213_>
>         >>>>>>               
>     <https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=515213
>     <https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=515213>>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>> <_https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=515213_
>     <https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=515213_>
>         >>>>>>               
>     <https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=515213
>     <https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=515213>>>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>> <_https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=515213_
>     <https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=515213_>
>         >>>>>>               
>     <https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=515213
>     <https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=515213>>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>> <_https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=515213_
>     <https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=515213_>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>> <https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=515213
>     <https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=515213>>>>>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>                  In the end, he sent me a note saying
>     (and I quote):
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>                   I see that now there is the same number of
>         >>>>>>                   httpcomponents bundles
>         >>>>>>                   as there was in the messed up Oxygen M6
>     builds.  But
>         >>>>>>                   here my back
>         >>>>>>                   port of the resolver fix does not seem
>     to have fixed
>         >>>>>>                   the issue.
>         >>>>>>                   I'm unsure if that is because it gave
>     up with the
>         >>>>>> sheer
>         >>>>>>                   number of
>         >>>>>>                   bundles or if something else is going
>     wrong.  But at
>         >>>>>>                   this point
>         >>>>>>                   the backport of the resolver fix does
>     not seem to be
>         >>>>>>                   the solution
>         >>>>>>                   to the problem.
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>                  I assumed (wrongly I guess) that Thomas
>     would
>         >>>>>>                   investigate a more
>         >>>>>>                   general fix to address the wiring problem.
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>                  In the end, I also wasn't sure which
>     version of the
>         >>>>>> docker
>         >>>>>>                   tools is
>         >>>>>>                   proposed for contribution to Neon.3a. 
>     I tried to
>         >>>>>> search for
>         >>>>>>                   update
>         >>>>>>                   sites containing it like this:
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>                  Nothing looks like a new version of
>     2.3.  Goodness
>         >>>>>> knows
>         >>>>>>                   where one
>         >>>>>>                   should find what's being proposed for
>     contribution...
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>                  In any case, the proposed "solution" (A)
>     really just
>         >>>>>>                   changes the
>         >>>>>>                   version of httpclient to be one that's
>     not broken
>         >>>>>> (missing
>         >>>>>>                  packages), but it doesn't change the
>     wiring problem in
>         >>>>>> any
>         >>>>>>                  fundamental way.  There will still be
>     the four
>         >>>>>> versions that
>         >>>>>>                   can all
>         >>>>>>                   be installed simultaneously, so we
>     really should
>         >>>>>> expect
>         >>>>>>                   the same
>         >>>>>>                   wiring problem(s).  In fact, I believe
>     Oxygen M6 has
>         >>>>>>                   effectively the
>         >>>>>>                   same four httpcomponents.httpclient
>     bundle as does
>         >>>>>>                   Neon.3, so
>         >>>>>>                   I'm a
>         >>>>>>                   little suspicious whether the wiring
>     problem is in
>         >>>>>> fact
>         >>>>>>                   really
>         >>>>>>                   fixed
>         >>>>>>                   even for Oxygen.  We won't know until
>     M7 and that's a
>         >>>>>>                   month away.
>         >>>>>>                   It doesn't give me warm fuzzy feelings.
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>                  So at this point it remains unclear the
>     nature of the
>         >>>>>> wiring
>         >>>>>>                  problem(s).  Is it a bug? Is it fixable?
>     Does the
>         >>>>>>                   knowledge, will,
>         >>>>>>                   and capacity to fix it exist?
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>                  Without a fix to the wiring problem I
>     think we can
>         >>>>>>                   eliminate A
>         >>>>>>                   as a
>         >>>>>>                   solution, leaving B, C, and D (i.e.,
>     focus on problem
>         >>>>>>                   avoidance
>         >>>>>>                   approaches).  But I think if the wiring
>     problem is a
>         >>>>>>                   bug, it will
>         >>>>>>                   come back, and it will raise its ugly
>     head again when
>         >>>>>> users
>         >>>>>>                   install
>         >>>>>>                   various technologies from various
>     sources.  To my
>         >>>>>>                   thinking, fixing
>         >>>>>>                   the bug seems important.
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>                  Regards,
>         >>>>>>                  Ed
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>                  On 19.04.2017 12:49, Frederic Gurr wrote:
>         >>>>>>                   Hi Ed,
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>                  In the last planning-council meeting you
>     offered to
>         >>>>>>                   evaluate
>         >>>>>>                   if the
>         >>>>>>                   fixed Linux Tools package works as
>     expected and if
>         >>>>>>                   there are
>         >>>>>>                   still
>         >>>>>>                   wiring issues.
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>                  Can you give us an update on the current
>     state?
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>                  Regards,
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>                  Fred
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>                  On 31.03.2017 11:14, Ed Merks wrote:
>         >>>>>>                   Hi,
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>                  The original thread is fractured into
>     many threads
>         >>>>>> so its
>         >>>>>>                   kind of
>         >>>>>>                   impossible to follow each thread with a
>     reply but
>         >>>>>> I'll try
>         >>>>>>                   at the bottom
>         >>>>>>                   of this note, i.e., below the ===========
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>                  But before doing that, I'd like to
>     re-focus on the
>         >>>>>> most
>         >>>>>>                   important
>         >>>>>>                   questions: *We currently have a problem
>     with Neon.3,
>         >>>>>>                   will we
>         >>>>>>                   fix it, and
>         >>>>>>                   if so how will we fix it?*
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>                  The discussion has quickly digressed
>     (constructively)
>         >>>>>> into
>         >>>>>>                   solving the
>         >>>>>>                   issue of how Orbit dependencies should
>     be managed by
>         >>>>>>                   projects and by the
>         >>>>>>                   release train.  Unfortunately I see
>     this as a world
>         >>>>>> hunger
>         >>>>>>                   issue; not
>         >>>>>>                   one that is easily addressed and I
>     believe not one we
>         >>>>>> can
>         >>>>>>                   wait for in
>         >>>>>>                   order to solve the Neon.3 problem. 
>     Let's face it,
>         >>>>>>                   we've not
>         >>>>>>                   been able
>         >>>>>>                   to produce a proper Oxygen milestone in
>     months, we
>         >>>>>> still
>         >>>>>>                   don't have one
>         >>>>>>                   now, and we won't have one until next
>     month, we hope.
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>                  For Neon we've done three maintenance
>     releases. Neon.1
>         >>>>>>                   needed a respin
>         >>>>>>                   and Neon.3 looks to be in need of the
>     same thing.
>         >>>>>> Clearly
>         >>>>>>                   something is
>         >>>>>>                   seriously wrong.  But if we spend our
>     time on solving
>         >>>>>> the
>         >>>>>>                   Orbit world
>         >>>>>>                   hunger issue, will we arrive at a
>     solution in time
>         >>>>>> for
>         >>>>>>                   Oxygen, let alone
>         >>>>>>                   in time to fix Neon.3?  I am very, very
>     doubtful.
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>                  As another data point, if I install the
>         >>>>>>                   egg-laying-wool-milk-pig for
>         >>>>>>                   Neon.3.  The following happens.  I'm
>     prompted to
>         >>>>>>                   accept this
>         >>>>>>                   license:
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>                      Red Hat, Inc. licenses these
>     features and plugins
>         >>>>>>                   to you
>         >>>>>>                   under
>         >>>>>>                       certain open source licenses (or
>     aggregations of
>         >>>>>> such
>         >>>>>>                   licenses),
>         >>>>>>                       which in a particular case may
>     include the
>         >>>>>> Eclipse
>         >>>>>>                   Public License,
>         >>>>>>                       the GNU Lesser General Public
>     License, and/or
>         >>>>>> certain
>         >>>>>>                   other open
>         >>>>>>                       source licenses. For precise
>     licensing details,
>         >>>>>>                   consult the
>         >>>>>>                       corresponding source code, or
>     contact Red Hat,
>         >>>>>>                   Attn: General
>         >>>>>>                       Counsel, 100 East Davie St.,
>     Raleigh NC 27601
>         >>>>>> USA.
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>                  I'm not sure how this license slipped
>     into the release
>         >>>>>>                   train.   Aren't
>         >>>>>>                   there checks for this?  (Sorry to
>     digress, but
>         >>>>>> this is
>         >>>>>>                   also
>         >>>>>>                   unacceptable.)
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>                  Launching the final installation comes
>     up like this:
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>                  Clearly a disgusting mess, but I've
>     mentioned that
>         >>>>>> before
>         >>>>>>                   and the same
>         >>>>>>                   projects are still doing the same bad
>     things, so we
>         >>>>>>                   clearly
>         >>>>>>                   all accept
>         >>>>>>                   this situation as normal.
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>                  The most important point here is the
>     error log (first
>         >>>>>>                   attachment) is
>         >>>>>>                   full of exactly the problem indications
>     (bundle
>         >>>>>> wiring
>         >>>>>>                   problems) we
>         >>>>>>                   should have expected from the Neon.3
>     repository's
>         >>>>>>                   contents,
>         >>>>>>                   if someone
>         >>>>>>                   were to install an arbitrary
>     combination of the
>         >>>>>>                   repository's
>         >>>>>>                   contents.
>         >>>>>>                   It's really not so hard to test this!
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>                  If I create the same installation with
>     my local build
>         >>>>>>                   of the
>         >>>>>>                   Oomph 1.8
>         >>>>>>                   installer---which installs my locally built
>         >>>>>> version of
>         >>>>>>                   Oomph
>         >>>>>>                   1.8 so the
>         >>>>>>                   Oomph setup plugins are no longer
>     disabled because I
>         >>>>>>                   made the
>         >>>>>>                   userstorage dependency optional and
>     eliminated the
>         >>>>>> strict
>         >>>>>>                   <=4.4 upper
>         >>>>>>                   bound constraints on httpclient, which
>     was such a bad
>         >>>>>>                   idea I
>         >>>>>>                   can almost
>         >>>>>>                   have a canary to think this done to
>     solve a problem
>         >>>>>>                   with no
>         >>>>>>                   anticipation
>         >>>>>>                   of the problems it would cause---then I
>     can visit all
>         >>>>>> the
>         >>>>>>                   preference
>         >>>>>>                   pages producing the second attached
>     much larger
>         >>>>>> log. It
>         >>>>>>                   seems clear
>         >>>>>>                   that proper testing really doesn't
>     happen for far too
>         >>>>>> many
>         >>>>>>                   projects on
>         >>>>>>                   the train.  With distributed
>     responsibility, no
>         >>>>>> one is
>         >>>>>>                   really responsible...
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>                  ==================================
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>                  Orbit Issues
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>                  1) Respinning Linux Tools against Oxygen
>     Mx seems
>         >>>>>> to miss
>         >>>>>>                   the point that
>         >>>>>>                   we should only distribute released
>     versions of
>         >>>>>>                   bundles,  so
>         >>>>>>                   no Neon
>         >>>>>>                   build should redistribute any
>     unreleased version of
>         >>>>>>                   anything.  If a new
>         >>>>>>                   version of something is needed for security
>         >>>>>> reasons or
>         >>>>>>                   other
>         >>>>>>                   reasons, it
>         >>>>>>                   should be released first.  And doing
>     that in a
>         >>>>>> maintenance
>         >>>>>>                   train without
>         >>>>>>                   testing the overall impact is clearly
>     something we
>         >>>>>> should
>         >>>>>>                   never do again
>         >>>>>>                   (without waving a bunch of red flags of
>     warning). And
>         >>>>>>                   as Martin
>         >>>>>>                   Oberhuber asks, is nothing in place to
>     check for
>         >>>>>> this?  So
>         >>>>>>                   suppose we do
>         >>>>>>                   respin with a fixed released version,
>     like what we
>         >>>>>>                   have for
>         >>>>>>                   Oxygen M6,
>         >>>>>>                   then most likely we'd still have the
>     problems we
>         >>>>>> have in
>         >>>>>>                   Oxygen M6 so
>         >>>>>>                   we'd need a fix to the resolver in
>     Neon.  Better
>         >>>>>> would
>         >>>>>>                   seem
>         >>>>>>                   to respin
>         >>>>>>                   with the old version(s) of the Orbit
>     bundles, but
>         >>>>>>                   somehow we
>         >>>>>>                   can never
>         >>>>>>                   delete the broken version from Neon and
>     because it
>         >>>>>> has a
>         >>>>>>                   higher version
>         >>>>>>                   number is likely to slip back in
>     unexpected (though
>         >>>>>>                   hopefully not, given
>         >>>>>>                   that features have pinned their bundle
>     versions).
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>                  2) Don't include Orbit bundles in your
>     project's
>         >>>>>> features.
>         >>>>>>                   Sounds like
>         >>>>>>                   a great idea, but begs endless
>     questions, and while
>         >>>>>>                   solving
>         >>>>>>                   a problem
>         >>>>>>                   might well introduce more new problems
>     than it
>         >>>>>>                   solves.  The
>         >>>>>>                   first
>         >>>>>>                   question (as Carsten points out) is how
>     do these
>         >>>>>>                   things end
>         >>>>>>                   up in a
>         >>>>>>                   repository, and if they are in a
>     repository somehow,
>         >>>>>>                   how are
>         >>>>>>                   they
>         >>>>>>                   categorized?  It's hard to get them in
>     and once you
>         >>>>>>                   do, they're
>         >>>>>>                   categorized poorly.  The next question
>     is, how do
>         >>>>>> they end
>         >>>>>>                   up in the
>         >>>>>>                   release train, if the projects that
>     need them don't
>         >>>>>>                   contribute them?
>         >>>>>>                   Directly from Orbit you say?  But which
>     ones
>         >>>>>> should be
>         >>>>>>                   pulled in from
>         >>>>>>                   Orbit and how is that discovered?   Are
>     those the
>         >>>>>> ones the
>         >>>>>>                   projects have
>         >>>>>>                   tested against? Then there is the
>     question of
>         >>>>>> whether an
>         >>>>>>                   installation is
>         >>>>>>                   deterministic if the bundle version
>     isn't pinned?
>         >>>>>>                   It's not;
>         >>>>>>                   it will
>         >>>>>>                   depend on what's in the repos that are
>     available at
>         >>>>>>                   resolve
>         >>>>>>                   time.  But
>         >>>>>>                   Gunnar argues that even packages are not
>         >>>>>> deterministic,
>         >>>>>>                   which I think is
>         >>>>>>                   false: if the feature pins the bundle
>     version and the
>         >>>>>>                   package requires
>         >>>>>>                   the feature, then the pinned bundle is
>     definitely in
>         >>>>>> that
>         >>>>>>                   package.  But
>         >>>>>>                   regardless, Gunnar's important point is
>     that the
>         >>>>>> runtime
>         >>>>>>                   wiring seems
>         >>>>>>                   kind of non-determinstic, and while
>     uses constraints
>         >>>>>> might
>         >>>>>>                   help, who the
>         >>>>>>                   heck understands those well, what
>     tooling produces it
>         >>>>>>                   correctly for us,
>         >>>>>>                   is that nicely integrated in PDE, and
>     will it be
>         >>>>>> properly
>         >>>>>>                   maintained (in
>         >>>>>>                   contrast to lower bound constraints
>     which you can
>         >>>>>> pretty
>         >>>>>>                   expect will
>         >>>>>>                   remain on whatever stale version they were
>         >>>>>> initially set
>         >>>>>>                   to).  This may
>         >>>>>>                   well be the right direction in which to
>     go, but
>         >>>>>> getting
>         >>>>>>                   there isn't
>         >>>>>>                   going to be even half the fun...
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>                  Regards,
>         >>>>>>                  Ed
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>                 
>     _______________________________________________
>         >>>>>>                  cross-project-issues-dev mailing list
>         >>>>>>                  _cross-project-issues-dev@xxxxxxxxxxxx
>         >>>>>>               
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>         >>>>>>               
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>         >>>>>>               
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>         >>>>>>               
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>         >>>>>>
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>         >>>>>>
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>         >>>>>>
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>         >>>>>>
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>      <_mailto:cross-project-issues-dev@xxxxxxxxxxxx
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>         >>>>>>               
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>         >>>>>>                 
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>      <_mailto:cross-project-issues-dev@xxxxxxxxxxxx
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>         >>>>>>               
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>         >>>>>>               
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>         >>>>>>                 
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>         >>>>>>                 
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>         >>>>>>                Mobile: +49-179-131-7721
>     <tel:+49%20179%201317721>_
>         >>>>>>                __http://www.codetrails.com/_
>         >>>>>>
>         >>>>>>                Managing Director: Dr. Marcel Bruch
>         >>>>>>                Handelsregister: Darmstadt HRB 91940
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