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Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Neon.3 Update Problems: To Fix and How to Fix?

Ed,

The temporary update site URL is:

https://hudson.eclipse.org/simrel/job/simrel.neon.3_respin.runaggregator.BUILD__CLEAN/3/artifact/aggregation/final

Regards,

Fred

On 25.04.2017 15:13, Ed Merks wrote:
> Fred,
> 
> What update site URL contains these results?
> 
> Regards,
> Ed
> 
> 
> On 25.04.2017 14:28, Frederic Gurr wrote:
>> Thanks Jeff,
>>
>> This is the comparison of the non-unique versions list:
>>
>> neon3_respin aggregation build 20.04.
>> (https://hudson.eclipse.org/simrel/job/simrel.neon.3_respin.runaggregator.BUILD__CLEAN/2/artifact/aggregation/final/buildInfo/reporeports/reports/nonUniqueVersions.txt):
>>
>>
>> org.apache.httpcomponents.httpclient
>>     4.3.6.v201411290715
>>     4.5.2.v20161115-1643
>>     4.3.6.v201511171540
>>     4.2.6.v201311072007
>> org.apache.httpcomponents.httpcore
>>     4.3.3.v201411290715
>>     4.4.6.v20170210-0925
>>     4.2.5.v201311072007
>>     
>> neon3_respin aggregation build 25.04.
>> (https://hudson.eclipse.org/simrel/job/simrel.neon.3_respin.runaggregator.BUILD__CLEAN/3/artifact/aggregation/final/buildInfo/reporeports/reports/nonUniqueVersions.txt):
>>
>>
>> org.apache.httpcomponents.httpclient
>>     4.3.6.v201411290715
>>     4.3.6.v201511171540
>>     4.2.6.v201311072007
>> org.apache.httpcomponents.httpcore
>>     4.3.3.v201411290715
>>     4.2.5.v201311072007
>>
>>
>> So o.a.h.httpclient version 4.5.2 and o.a.h.httpcore version 4.4.6 are
>> not in the repo any more.
>>
>> @All: Can someone confirm that this fixes the update problem (earlier
>> version to Neon.3)?
>>
>> If it is confirmed to work, we have a fix for users that have not
>> upgraded to Neon.3 yet. Users that already upgraded are unaffected by
>> this. They still need to wait for a "wiring issue" fix.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Fred
>>
>>
>> On 21.04.2017 23:00, Jeff Johnston wrote:
>>> Just to confirm that the change has been merged to the Neon.3_respin
>>> branch.
>>>
>>> -- Jeff J.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 4:11 PM, Jeff Johnston <jjohnstn@xxxxxxxxxx
>>> <mailto:jjohnstn@xxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
>>>
>>>      I have done another respin.  In this case, I rebuilt the Linux
>>> Tools
>>>      plug-ins to use the older version
>>>      of docker-client and its dependencies which were used in Neon.2.  I
>>>      have back-versioned the
>>>      Docker tooling plug-ins to 2.3.0 with the current date.
>>>
>>>      I have just pushed to gerrit for Neon.3_respin branch.
>>>
>>>      https://git.eclipse.org/r/#/c/95501/
>>>      <https://git.eclipse.org/r/#/c/95501/>
>>>
>>>      If no-one objects, I will merge into the branch.  Verification is
>>>      already successful.
>>>
>>>      -- Jeff J.
>>>
>>>      On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 11:50 AM, Jeff Johnston
>>> <jjohnstn@xxxxxxxxxx
>>>      <mailto:jjohnstn@xxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
>>>
>>>          Marcel,
>>>
>>>          Since the respin didn't fix the problem, we will try reverting
>>>          the docker-client dependency and keeping as much of the added
>>>          Neon.3 functionality as possible
>>>          in place and cutting another point release.  I will let the
>>> list
>>>          know when I have something in place.
>>>
>>>          -- Jeff J.
>>>
>>>          On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 6:38 AM, Daniel Megert
>>>          <daniel_megert@xxxxxxxxxx <mailto:daniel_megert@xxxxxxxxxx>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>              Adding eclipse.org-planning-council@xxxxxxxxxxx
>>>              <mailto:eclipse.org-planning-council@xxxxxxxxxxx> to this
>>>              thread.
>>>
>>>              Dani
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>              From:        "Dr. Marcel Bruch"
>>> <marcel.bruch@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>              <mailto:marcel.bruch@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
>>>              To:        Cross project issues
>>>              <cross-project-issues-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
>>>              <mailto:cross-project-issues-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>>
>>>              Date:        21.04.2017 10:17
>>>              Subject:        Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Neon.3
>>> Update
>>>              Problems: To Fix and        How to Fix?
>>>              Sent by:       
>>> cross-project-issues-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
>>>              <mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>             
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>              Hi,
>>>
>>>              I’ll briefly summarize the discussion we had at the AC
>>>              yesterday:
>>>
>>>              Given that we don’t know how the OSGI resolver will behave
>>>              (even after Tom back-ported a fix to Neon) it would be
>>>              preferred to just have the Apache HTTP*** versions in
>>> Neon.3
>>>              that were already in Neon.2. This would to some extend
>>>              “ensure" that we are "at least as as stable as Neon.2”.
>>> This
>>>              would require us to rollback the changes that introduced
>>> the
>>>              latest version of HTTPClient. As far as I know this would
>>>              especially affect the Docker Tooling. (maybe more changes
>>>              than that are needed)
>>>
>>>              My question to the *Docker Tooling project lead*: Is it
>>>              possible to rollback this last minute change and
>>> postpone it
>>>              to Oxygen for the sake of making EGit, MPC, Oomph, USS, and
>>>              Code Recommenders work reliably again - and giving us more
>>>              trust that we won’t get into trouble with Neon.3? The
>>>              simplest solution may be to contribute the docker tooling
>>>              from Neon.2 in Neon.3. WDYT?
>>>
>>>              Marcel
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>              On 20 Apr 2017, at 18:54, Frederic Gurr
>>>              <_frederic.gurr@xxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>              <mailto:frederic.gurr@xxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
>>>
>>>              I can see
>>>             
>>> org.apache.httpcomponents.httpclient_4.5.2.v20170210-0925 in
>>>             
>>> /home/data/httpd/_download.eclipse.org/linuxtools/update-docker-2.3.1/plugins_
>>>
>>>             
>>> <http://download.eclipse.org/linuxtools/update-docker-2.3.1/plugins>,
>>>              but it's definitely not in the aggregated repo.
>>>
>>>
>>>              On 20.04.2017 18:31, Jeff Johnston wrote:
>>>              Fred,
>>>
>>>              The version of httpclient also changed in our
>>>              update-docker-2.3.1 repo from:
>>>
>>>              org.apache.httpcomponents.httpclient_4.5.2.v20161115-1643
>>>
>>>              to:
>>>
>>>              org.apache.httpcomponents.httpclient_4.5.2.v20170210-0925
>>>
>>>              Not sure why this change isn't being seen as well.
>>>
>>>              -- Jeff J.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>              On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 12:21 PM, Frederic Gurr
>>>              <_frederic.gurr@xxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>             
>>> <mailto:frederic.gurr@xxxxxxxxxxx><_mailto:frederic.gurr@xxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>              <mailto:frederic.gurr@xxxxxxxxxxx>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>                Thanks Jeff,
>>>
>>>                I ran a SimRel aggregation build. The only change I can
>>>              see in the list
>>>                of "Non Unique Versions used in repository" is that a
>>>              different version
>>>                of org.apache.httpcomponents.httpcore is now used.
>>> Instead of
>>>                4.4.4.v20161115-1643 it's now 4.4.6.v20170210-0925.
>>>
>>>                I compared
>>>                           
>>> _http://download.eclipse.org/releases/neon/201703231000/buildInfo/reporeports/reports/nonUniqueVersions.txt_
>>>
>>>             
>>> <http://download.eclipse.org/releases/neon/201703231000/buildInfo/reporeports/reports/nonUniqueVersions.txt>
>>>
>>>                           
>>> <_http://download.eclipse.org/releases/neon/201703231000/buildInfo/reporeports/reports/nonUniqueVersions.txt_
>>>
>>>             
>>> <http://download.eclipse.org/releases/neon/201703231000/buildInfo/reporeports/reports/nonUniqueVersions.txt>>
>>>
>>>                and
>>>                           
>>> _https://hudson.eclipse.org/simrel/job/simrel.neon.3_respin.runaggregator.BUILD__CLEAN/ws/aggregation/final/buildInfo/reporeports/reports/nonUniqueVersions.txt_
>>>
>>>             
>>> <https://hudson.eclipse.org/simrel/job/simrel.neon.3_respin.runaggregator.BUILD__CLEAN/ws/aggregation/final/buildInfo/reporeports/reports/nonUniqueVersions.txt>
>>>
>>>                           
>>> <_https://hudson.eclipse.org/simrel/job/simrel.neon.3_respin.runaggregator.BUILD__CLEAN/ws/aggregation/final/buildInfo/reporeports/reports/nonUniqueVersions.txt_
>>>
>>>             
>>> <https://hudson.eclipse.org/simrel/job/simrel.neon.3_respin.runaggregator.BUILD__CLEAN/ws/aggregation/final/buildInfo/reporeports/reports/nonUniqueVersions.txt>>
>>>
>>>
>>>                @All: is that the intended result?
>>>
>>>                Regards,
>>>
>>>                Fred
>>>
>>>
>>>                On 19.04.2017 20:21, Jeff Johnston wrote:
>>>              Hi Fred,
>>>
>>>              I have just pushed a change to gerrit:
>>>                 _https://git.eclipse.org/r/#/c/95308/_
>>>              <https://git.eclipse.org/r/#/c/95308/>
>>>                <_https://git.eclipse.org/r/#/c/95308/_
>>>              <https://git.eclipse.org/r/#/c/95308/>>
>>>
>>>              I only changed the docker repository and left the other
>>>              Linux Tools
>>>              features alone
>>>              since they were only bumped as part of the point release to
>>>              fix the
>>>              Docker Tooling plug-ins.
>>>
>>>              I assume I can merge the patch if the gerrit
>>> verification is
>>>              successful.  If this is wrong,
>>>              let me know.
>>>
>>>              -- Jeff J.
>>>
>>>              On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 1:08 PM, Frederic Gurr
>>>              <_frederic.gurr@xxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>             
>>> <mailto:frederic.gurr@xxxxxxxxxxx><_mailto:frederic.gurr@xxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>              <mailto:frederic.gurr@xxxxxxxxxxx>>
>>>                 <_mailto:frederic.gurr@xxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>              <mailto:frederic.gurr@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>                <_mailto:frederic.gurr@xxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>              <mailto:frederic.gurr@xxxxxxxxxxx>>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>                Hi,
>>>
>>>                Can you provide a patch for the SimRel build (branch
>>>                 "Neon.3_respin")
>>>                 that references the new version?
>>>
>>>                Regards,
>>>
>>>                Fred
>>>
>>>                On 19.04.2017 17:27, Jeff Johnston wrote:
>>>              Hi Ed,
>>>
>>>              Linux tools spun a 5.3.1 release which now has a 2.3.1
>>>                 version of
>>>                 docker
>>>              tooling.  The Linux tools download site has
>>>                 update-docker-2.3.1 and
>>>              update-docker, both which have 2.3.1 versions of the
>>> docker.core
>>>                 plug-in
>>>              and docker feature.  Not sure why you are not seeing this.
>>>
>>>              -- Jeff J.
>>>
>>>              On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 11:13 AM, Ed Merks
>>>                 <_ed.merks@xxxxxxxxxx
>>>              <mailto:ed.merks@xxxxxxxxx><_mailto:ed.merks@xxxxxxxxxx
>>>              <mailto:ed.merks@xxxxxxxxx>>
>>>                 <_mailto:ed.merks@xxxxxxxxxx<_mailto:ed.merks@xxxxxxxxxx
>>>              <mailto:ed.merks@xxxxxxxxx>>>
>>>              <_mailto:ed.merks@xxxxxxxxxx<_mailto:ed.merks@xxxxxxxxxx
>>>              <mailto:ed.merks@xxxxxxxxx>>
>>>                 <_mailto:ed.merks@xxxxxxxxxx<_mailto:ed.merks@xxxxxxxxxx
>>>              <mailto:ed.merks@xxxxxxxxx>>>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>                Frederic,
>>>
>>>                There seem to have been no notes/minutes taken during
>>>                 the meeting:
>>>
>>>
>>>                             
>>> _https://wiki.eclipse.org/Planning_Council/April_05_2017_
>>>              <https://wiki.eclipse.org/Planning_Council/April_05_2017>
>>>               
>>> <_https://wiki.eclipse.org/Planning_Council/April_05_2017_
>>>              <https://wiki.eclipse.org/Planning_Council/April_05_2017>>
>>>                            
>>> <_https://wiki.eclipse.org/Planning_Council/April_05_2017_
>>>              <https://wiki.eclipse.org/Planning_Council/April_05_2017>
>>>                            
>>> <_https://wiki.eclipse.org/Planning_Council/April_05_2017_
>>>              <https://wiki.eclipse.org/Planning_Council/April_05_2017>>>
>>>                            
>>> <_https://wiki.eclipse.org/Planning_Council/April_05_2017_
>>>              <https://wiki.eclipse.org/Planning_Council/April_05_2017>
>>>                            
>>> <_https://wiki.eclipse.org/Planning_Council/April_05_2017_
>>>              <https://wiki.eclipse.org/Planning_Council/April_05_2017>>
>>>                            
>>> <_https://wiki.eclipse.org/Planning_Council/April_05_2017_
>>>              <https://wiki.eclipse.org/Planning_Council/April_05_2017>
>>>                            
>>> <_https://wiki.eclipse.org/Planning_Council/April_05_2017_
>>>             
>>> <https://wiki.eclipse.org/Planning_Council/April_05_2017>>>>
>>>
>>>                I recall agreeing to provide steps for reproducing the
>>>                 problem so
>>>                 that Thomas Watson could test if the wiring resolution
>>>                 fix he made
>>>                 for Oxygen also solves the problem for Neon.3.  The fact
>>>                 that he
>>>                 encountered "the mirroring problem" didn't help in that
>>>                 regard:
>>>
>>>                  _https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=515213_
>>>              <https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=515213>
>>>                 <_https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=515213_
>>>              <https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=515213>>
>>>                 <_https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=515213_
>>>              <https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=515213>
>>>                 <_https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=515213_
>>>              <https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=515213>>>
>>>                 <_https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=515213_
>>>              <https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=515213>
>>>                 <_https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=515213_
>>>              <https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=515213>>
>>>                 <_https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=515213_
>>>              <https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=515213>
>>>                 <_https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=515213_
>>>              <https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=515213>>>>
>>>
>>>                In the end, he sent me a note saying (and I quote):
>>>
>>>                 I see that now there is the same number of
>>>                 httpcomponents bundles
>>>                 as there was in the messed up Oxygen M6 builds.  But
>>>                 here my back
>>>                 port of the resolver fix does not seem to have fixed
>>>                 the issue.
>>>                 I'm unsure if that is because it gave up with the sheer
>>>                 number of
>>>                 bundles or if something else is going wrong.  But at
>>>                 this point
>>>                 the backport of the resolver fix does not seem to be
>>>                 the solution
>>>                 to the problem.
>>>
>>>                I assumed (wrongly I guess) that Thomas would
>>>                 investigate a more
>>>                 general fix to address the wiring problem.
>>>
>>>                In the end, I also wasn't sure which version of the
>>> docker
>>>                 tools is
>>>                 proposed for contribution to Neon.3a.  I tried to
>>> search for
>>>                 update
>>>                 sites containing it like this:
>>>
>>>                Nothing looks like a new version of 2.3.  Goodness knows
>>>                 where one
>>>                 should find what's being proposed for contribution...
>>>
>>>                In any case, the proposed "solution" (A) really just
>>>                 changes the
>>>                 version of httpclient to be one that's not broken
>>> (missing
>>>                packages), but it doesn't change the wiring problem in
>>> any
>>>                fundamental way.  There will still be the four
>>> versions that
>>>                 can all
>>>                 be installed simultaneously, so we really should expect
>>>                 the same
>>>                 wiring problem(s).  In fact, I believe Oxygen M6 has
>>>                 effectively the
>>>                 same four httpcomponents.httpclient bundle as does
>>>                 Neon.3, so
>>>                 I'm a
>>>                 little suspicious whether the wiring problem is in fact
>>>                 really
>>>                 fixed
>>>                 even for Oxygen.  We won't know until M7 and that's a
>>>                 month away.
>>>                 It doesn't give me warm fuzzy feelings.
>>>
>>>                So at this point it remains unclear the nature of the
>>> wiring
>>>                problem(s).  Is it a bug? Is it fixable? Does the
>>>                 knowledge, will,
>>>                 and capacity to fix it exist?
>>>
>>>                Without a fix to the wiring problem I think we can
>>>                 eliminate A
>>>                 as a
>>>                 solution, leaving B, C, and D (i.e., focus on problem
>>>                 avoidance
>>>                 approaches).  But I think if the wiring problem is a
>>>                 bug, it will
>>>                 come back, and it will raise its ugly head again when
>>> users
>>>                 install
>>>                 various technologies from various sources.  To my
>>>                 thinking, fixing
>>>                 the bug seems important.
>>>
>>>                Regards,
>>>                Ed
>>>
>>>
>>>                On 19.04.2017 12:49, Frederic Gurr wrote:
>>>                 Hi Ed,
>>>
>>>                In the last planning-council meeting you offered to
>>>                 evaluate
>>>                 if the
>>>                 fixed Linux Tools package works as expected and if
>>>                 there are
>>>                 still
>>>                 wiring issues.
>>>
>>>                Can you give us an update on the current state?
>>>
>>>                Regards,
>>>
>>>                Fred
>>>
>>>                On 31.03.2017 11:14, Ed Merks wrote:
>>>                 Hi,
>>>
>>>                The original thread is fractured into many threads so its
>>>                 kind of
>>>                 impossible to follow each thread with a reply but
>>> I'll try
>>>                 at the bottom
>>>                 of this note, i.e., below the ===========
>>>
>>>                But before doing that, I'd like to re-focus on the most
>>>                 important
>>>                 questions: *We currently have a problem with Neon.3,
>>>                 will we
>>>                 fix it, and
>>>                 if so how will we fix it?*
>>>
>>>                The discussion has quickly digressed (constructively)
>>> into
>>>                 solving the
>>>                 issue of how Orbit dependencies should be managed by
>>>                 projects and by the
>>>                 release train.  Unfortunately I see this as a world
>>> hunger
>>>                 issue; not
>>>                 one that is easily addressed and I believe not one we
>>> can
>>>                 wait for in
>>>                 order to solve the Neon.3 problem.  Let's face it,
>>>                 we've not
>>>                 been able
>>>                 to produce a proper Oxygen milestone in months, we still
>>>                 don't have one
>>>                 now, and we won't have one until next month, we hope.
>>>
>>>                For Neon we've done three maintenance releases. Neon.1
>>>                 needed a respin
>>>                 and Neon.3 looks to be in need of the same thing.
>>> Clearly
>>>                 something is
>>>                 seriously wrong.  But if we spend our time on solving
>>> the
>>>                 Orbit world
>>>                 hunger issue, will we arrive at a solution in time for
>>>                 Oxygen, let alone
>>>                 in time to fix Neon.3?  I am very, very doubtful.
>>>
>>>                As another data point, if I install the
>>>                 egg-laying-wool-milk-pig for
>>>                 Neon.3.  The following happens.  I'm prompted to
>>>                 accept this
>>>                 license:
>>>
>>>                    Red Hat, Inc. licenses these features and plugins
>>>                 to you
>>>                 under
>>>                     certain open source licenses (or aggregations of
>>> such
>>>                 licenses),
>>>                     which in a particular case may include the Eclipse
>>>                 Public License,
>>>                     the GNU Lesser General Public License, and/or
>>> certain
>>>                 other open
>>>                     source licenses. For precise licensing details,
>>>                 consult the
>>>                     corresponding source code, or contact Red Hat,
>>>                 Attn: General
>>>                     Counsel, 100 East Davie St., Raleigh NC 27601 USA.
>>>
>>>                I'm not sure how this license slipped into the release
>>>                 train.   Aren't
>>>                 there checks for this?  (Sorry to digress, but this is
>>>                 also
>>>                 unacceptable.)
>>>
>>>                Launching the final installation comes up like this:
>>>
>>>                Clearly a disgusting mess, but I've mentioned that before
>>>                 and the same
>>>                 projects are still doing the same bad things, so we
>>>                 clearly
>>>                 all accept
>>>                 this situation as normal.
>>>
>>>                The most important point here is the error log (first
>>>                 attachment) is
>>>                 full of exactly the problem indications (bundle wiring
>>>                 problems) we
>>>                 should have expected from the Neon.3 repository's
>>>                 contents,
>>>                 if someone
>>>                 were to install an arbitrary combination of the
>>>                 repository's
>>>                 contents.
>>>                 It's really not so hard to test this!
>>>
>>>                If I create the same installation with my local build
>>>                 of the
>>>                 Oomph 1.8
>>>                 installer---which installs my locally built version of
>>>                 Oomph
>>>                 1.8 so the
>>>                 Oomph setup plugins are no longer disabled because I
>>>                 made the
>>>                 userstorage dependency optional and eliminated the
>>> strict
>>>                 <=4.4 upper
>>>                 bound constraints on httpclient, which was such a bad
>>>                 idea I
>>>                 can almost
>>>                 have a canary to think this done to solve a problem
>>>                 with no
>>>                 anticipation
>>>                 of the problems it would cause---then I can visit all
>>> the
>>>                 preference
>>>                 pages producing the second attached much larger log. It
>>>                 seems clear
>>>                 that proper testing really doesn't happen for far too
>>> many
>>>                 projects on
>>>                 the train.  With distributed responsibility, no one is
>>>                 really responsible...
>>>
>>>                ==================================
>>>
>>>                Orbit Issues
>>>
>>>                1) Respinning Linux Tools against Oxygen Mx seems to miss
>>>                 the point that
>>>                 we should only distribute released versions of
>>>                 bundles,  so
>>>                 no Neon
>>>                 build should redistribute any unreleased version of
>>>                 anything.  If a new
>>>                 version of something is needed for security reasons or
>>>                 other
>>>                 reasons, it
>>>                 should be released first.  And doing that in a
>>> maintenance
>>>                 train without
>>>                 testing the overall impact is clearly something we
>>> should
>>>                 never do again
>>>                 (without waving a bunch of red flags of warning). And
>>>                 as Martin
>>>                 Oberhuber asks, is nothing in place to check for
>>> this?  So
>>>                 suppose we do
>>>                 respin with a fixed released version, like what we
>>>                 have for
>>>                 Oxygen M6,
>>>                 then most likely we'd still have the problems we have in
>>>                 Oxygen M6 so
>>>                 we'd need a fix to the resolver in Neon.  Better would
>>>                 seem
>>>                 to respin
>>>                 with the old version(s) of the Orbit bundles, but
>>>                 somehow we
>>>                 can never
>>>                 delete the broken version from Neon and because it has a
>>>                 higher version
>>>                 number is likely to slip back in unexpected (though
>>>                 hopefully not, given
>>>                 that features have pinned their bundle versions).
>>>
>>>                2) Don't include Orbit bundles in your project's
>>> features.
>>>                 Sounds like
>>>                 a great idea, but begs endless questions, and while
>>>                 solving
>>>                 a problem
>>>                 might well introduce more new problems than it
>>>                 solves.  The
>>>                 first
>>>                 question (as Carsten points out) is how do these
>>>                 things end
>>>                 up in a
>>>                 repository, and if they are in a repository somehow,
>>>                 how are
>>>                 they
>>>                 categorized?  It's hard to get them in and once you
>>>                 do, they're
>>>                 categorized poorly.  The next question is, how do
>>> they end
>>>                 up in the
>>>                 release train, if the projects that need them don't
>>>                 contribute them?
>>>                 Directly from Orbit you say?  But which ones should be
>>>                 pulled in from
>>>                 Orbit and how is that discovered?   Are those the
>>> ones the
>>>                 projects have
>>>                 tested against? Then there is the question of whether an
>>>                 installation is
>>>                 deterministic if the bundle version isn't pinned?
>>>                 It's not;
>>>                 it will
>>>                 depend on what's in the repos that are available at
>>>                 resolve
>>>                 time.  But
>>>                 Gunnar argues that even packages are not deterministic,
>>>                 which I think is
>>>                 false: if the feature pins the bundle version and the
>>>                 package requires
>>>                 the feature, then the pinned bundle is definitely in
>>> that
>>>                 package.  But
>>>                 regardless, Gunnar's important point is that the runtime
>>>                 wiring seems
>>>                 kind of non-determinstic, and while uses constraints
>>> might
>>>                 help, who the
>>>                 heck understands those well, what tooling produces it
>>>                 correctly for us,
>>>                 is that nicely integrated in PDE, and will it be
>>> properly
>>>                 maintained (in
>>>                 contrast to lower bound constraints which you can pretty
>>>                 expect will
>>>                 remain on whatever stale version they were initially set
>>>                 to).  This may
>>>                 well be the right direction in which to go, but getting
>>>                 there isn't
>>>                 going to be even half the fun...
>>>
>>>                Regards,
>>>                Ed
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>                _______________________________________________
>>>                cross-project-issues-dev mailing list
>>>                _cross-project-issues-dev@xxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>              <mailto:cross-project-issues-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>                 <_mailto:cross-project-issues-dev@xxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>              <mailto:cross-project-issues-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>>
>>>                 <_mailto:cross-project-issues-dev@xxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>              <mailto:cross-project-issues-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>                 <_mailto:cross-project-issues-dev@xxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>              <mailto:cross-project-issues-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>>>
>>>                 <_mailto:cross-project-issues-dev@xxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>              <mailto:cross-project-issues-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
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