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Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Eierlegende Wollmilchsau

----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michael Scharf" <eclipse@xxxxxxxxx>
> To: "Cross project issues" <cross-project-issues-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Wednesday, 9 December, 2015 11:25:24 PM
> Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Eierlegende Wollmilchsau
> 
> Hi Doug,
> 
> > I could make it the same 16 pixel size but it would look like crap, just
> > like the New Connectionâ
> > item in Michaelâs picture (which comes from RSE or TCF, BTW).
> 
> To use your words, I think the big controls "look like crap" and the "New
> Connectionâ"
> is just fine.
> 
> However, there is a trend to make decisions about the size of fonts and
> controls
> ignoring the system settings. I really really hate that every web page
> designer
> decides which font size I have to use to see their site. It's most of the
> time way too big and sometimes way too small. The worst sites are the ones
> that do not allow me to change the font size on mobile.

And I want to add that the very same is true if you change font for color. Everytime someone hardcodes a color (even via eclipse theme) there is collision with some OS theme and people do change OS themes, these are the kind of bug reports that are impossible to fix as there are only 2 working options either you define every single color of every single component without missing a single place (tedious job) or you have to give up on that business and let the operating system define these for you.


Alexander Kurtakov
Red Hat Eclipse team

> 
> The same is true for eclipse. Follow the font and size settings of the
> platform.
> It's not the job of plig-in "designers" to decide to make buttons extra huge,
> just
> because they think their stuff is extra important. ;-)
> 
> But the worst part is, I could not figure out how to remove those huge
> controls form the toolbar (I was not able to find them in customize
> perspective)
> 
> > For me, the most important thing is the workflow that the launch bar
> > enables
> > almost eliminating the need for the user to go to the launch configuration
> > dialog
> 
> Hmm for that purpose a eclipse runner
> 
>   https://github.com/scharf/eclipserunnerplugin/blob/master/EclipseRunner/help/Eclipse%20Runner.md
> 
> may be better, because switching launch configs is just one click
> away and the monster launch bar it may require up to 3 choices before
> you can run what you want....
> 
> Anyway -- the "eierlegende Wollmilchsau" is broken in so many more ways,
> like the "run" menu has only one entry: "Run EGF Activity..." and lots
> of other broken stuff....
> 
> Hmm, maybe eclipse needs a app-store like quality control to ensure that
> plugins (even the ones hosted on eclipse) do not infer in bad ways with
> the UI....
> 
> Michael
> 
> On 2015-12-09 19:16, Doug Schaefer wrote:
> > As I mentioned, I turn off almost all the other buttons on every
> > perspective. Only a few editor ones remain that have no equivalent in the
> > menus or keyboard shortcuts. Doing that, it actually looks OK, since there
> > are only 5 or 6 of the
> > little ones left.
> > 
> > And besides, I could make it the same 16 pixel size but it would look like
> > crap, just like the New Connectionâ item in Michaelâs picture (which comes
> > from RSE or TCF, BTW).
> > 
> > The end objective is to present something pleasant to the userâs eye with
> > images that make sense to them. Consistency is a means to an end, it is
> > not the end in itself. Happy users is the end :).
> > 
> > And, again, if someone can propose something better, Iâd love to try it
> > out. For me, the most important thing is the workflow that the launch bar
> > enables almost eliminating the need for the user to go to the launch
> > configuration dialog, and
> > to tie what is being built with what, where, and how the user wants to
> > launch it, something especially important to developers working with
> > remote devices and servers. I am less tied to how it looks, as long as it
> > doesnât look like crap.
> > 
> > Doug.
> > 
> > From: <cross-project-issues-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > <mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx>> on behalf of Lars
> > Vogel <lars.vogel@xxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:lars.vogel@xxxxxxxxxxx>>
> > Reply-To: Cross project issues <cross-project-issues-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > <mailto:cross-project-issues-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>>
> > Date: Wednesday, December 9, 2015 at 12:53 PM
> > To: Cross project issues <cross-project-issues-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > <mailto:cross-project-issues-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>>
> > Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Eierlegende Wollmilchsau
> > 
> >     I agree, that the bug lauchbar icons looks displaced.
> > 
> >     Doug, IIRC you usually a argue for consistency in the IDE. IMHO these
> >     lauchbar icons should use the same size as all the others, otherwise
> >     they are a UI breakage for the user.
> > 
> >     We in Platform plans to bring high resolution support for icons in the
> >     Neon release (IIRC Markus Keller works on this.
> > 
> >     Best regards, Lars
> > 
> >     Am 09.12.2015 5:30 nachm. schrieb "Ed Merks" <ed.merks@xxxxxxxxx
> >     <mailto:ed.merks@xxxxxxxxx>>:
> > 
> >         Doug,
> > 
> >         Comments below.
> > 
> >         On 09/12/2015 4:58 PM, Doug Schaefer wrote:
> >>         Thanks Ed! (and Michael for the picture).
> >         It was kind of entertaining.  In any case, we generate this product
> >         along with the rest of the product catalog, so it will always be
> >         available for testing.
> >>         This is awesome and Iâm glad weâre finally talking about this. In
> >>         fact, I think we also need to go beyond the contents of the
> >>         simrel repo and also consider popular 3rd party plug-ins, Pydev
> >>         and Nodeclipse come to mind. And Andmore
> >>         which is coming in Neon will also make this much worse and Iâm
> >>         planning on helping clean that up.
> >         Yes, unfortunately once it's installed, it's just all "Eclipse" to
> >         the end user, so if others mess things up, they mess it up for all
> >         of us...
> >>
> >>         You bring up a great point about the Toolbar. Itâs the most
> >>         obvious affect of the tragedy of the commons, and itâs why Iâm
> >>         having a personal war against it. Do these buttons really need to
> >>         be in the face of the user all the time?
> >         I would say not, and certainly not in every perspective either.
> >>         How often are any of these actually used versus the real estate
> >>         they take up.
> >         Indeed.
> >>         Wouldnât it look better if we had fewer toolbar buttons but make
> >>         them a little bit larger to make them easier to understand for
> >>         new users?
> >         I actually like them small.  But there's no accounting for personal
> >         taste.   Of course there could be a preference for toolbar button
> >         size (like Windows has for the task icons, which I have set to
> >         small), but unless an army of
> >         graphic designers make nicer large icons, that will probably look
> >         crappy.
> >>         How do we make this better?
> >         Get everyone to agree on the one way that's best. :-P   With EMF I
> >         took pains to ensure that it has no visible footprint when
> >         installed.   For Oomph we also tried to minimize visual footprint,
> >         so the toolbar buttons we really like
> >         (and that are super handy, if you're actually using Oomph) are not
> >         visible by default, but are easily made visible via a preference
> >         (and of course that preference can be recorded so I always see it
> >         and  you never do).
> > 
> >         While on the topic, one of the horrible things I always hit is
> >         those navigator toolbar buttons that I use a lot, but it navigates
> >         to a different editor, which has different toolbar contributions,
> >         so the navigator buttons move, and I
> >         have to hunt it down again, or hit the wrong button.  It's super
> >         frustrating.
> >>
> >>         And yes, the Launch Bar. Lots of Eclipse veterans complain about
> >>         how it doesnât fit in with the rest of the toolbar.
> >         It definitely doesn't fit in.  But I understand the design intent
> >         is good.
> >>         But take a look at the New Connectionâ item and how it really
> >>         doesnât fit in the 16 pixel height. It looks horrible.
> >         Where does it come from? My IDEs never have that, but of course I
> >         mostly use the committers package with some modeling tools
> >         installed.  But I didn't see it in JEE either.
> >>         When you turn off most of the toolbar buttons like I always do in
> >>         my workspaces, the Launch Bar looks kinda nice and itâs really
> >>         easy to swap launch configurations, modes and targets and hit the
> >>         start button to kick off a launch.
> >>         Now, clearly as this picture shows, it sticks out a bit too much.
> >>         But Iâve always said I am open to find a solution that makes
> >>         everything look better.
> >         One of the fundamental issues is whether I need all these toolbars
> >         in all perspectives.   It would be nice if you could create a cool
> >         CDT perspective without all the other things you don't need/want
> >         showing up.
> > 
> >         Easier customization would help, but it would be annoying to have
> >         to repeat those customizations for each workspace each time...
> >>
> >>         Doug
> >>
> >>
> > 
> > 
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> > 
> > 
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