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Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] FW: [Doug on the Eclipse CDT] New comment on "Eclipse smells kind of dead"???.

I think we can do that. Let's take that conversation to the cdt-dev list.

From: Aleksandar Kurtakov
Sent: Saturday, July 13, 2013 2:35 AM
To: Cross project issues
Reply To: Cross project issues
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] FW: [Doug on the Eclipse CDT] New comment on "Eclipse smells kind of dead"???.

----- Original Message -----
> From: "Doug Schaefer" <dschaefer@xxxxxxx>
> To: "Cross project issues" <cross-project-issues-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Friday, July 12, 2013 10:19:55 PM
> Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] FW: [Doug on the Eclipse CDT] New comment on "Eclipse smells kind of
> dead"???.
>
> Thanks Aleks, that's the kind of thing I'm looking for. It's these little
> ideas that could help get new people involved in Eclipse. We can probably
> think of a lot of little projects for people to work on.
>
> Mind you, it needs someone or a small group to nurture.

Hi Doug,
My team would be more than happy to join and help such initiative - via reviews, help newcomers, advertise it, with one existing CDT committer even push.  This would be a radical change in my eyes for how Eclipse projects work - there will be changes for the sake of the change itself and getting someone involved even if not immediately benefitting. As I don't think Platform would jump on such approach (at least not now) and for such an experiment to be viable a high profile project is needed. CDT is perfect for this in my eyes. What do you think? Will CDT devs welcome such a try? Can someone from CDT mark "easy hack" bugs somehow (keyword?) or open such bugs so there is smth to start with?
I know it may sound like pushing but this issue comes and goes periodically and it dies in discussing so a try-and-error approach is probably better. Even if nothing is gained all that can be lost is some amount of our precious time which is better use of it than just discussing.

Alexander Kurtakov
Red Hat Eclipse team

>
> As for the current discussion on what WONTFIX means. That doesn't really
> matter much. The issue is that problems that many users seem to really
> care about, enough to post on some hate forum (or communicate to me
> directly if you need proof they are real), aren't getting fixed.
>
> Doug.
>
> On 13-07-12 1:55 PM, "Aleksandar Kurtakov" <akurtako@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> >----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Doug Schaefer" <dschaefer@xxxxxxx>
> >> To: "Cross project issues" <cross-project-issues-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> Sent: Friday, July 12, 2013 7:57:28 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] FW: [Doug on the Eclipse CDT]
> >>New comment on "Eclipse smells kind of
> >> dead"???.
> >>
> >> I'm sure your powers that be will tell you we've all been trying that
> >>for
> >> years. Eclipse doesn't suck enough for that to work, which is a good
> >>thing
> >> in a way. That's why I hope we can aim at the grassroots people,
> >>individual
> >> users, who have the skills to help.
> >
> >Exactly. But this people are attracted by being able to use the thing
> >they have seen being advertized, being teached in university, read about
> >in latest news site, etc.
> >Eclipse projects usually don't satisfy any of these. Look at LibreOffice
> >there is a lot to be learned from that community. Especially their
> >EasyHack initiative. They let people work on modernizing the codebase for
> >the sake of more people getting familiar with the codebase. It might not
> >buy the project anything immediately but once jumped in there is some
> >percentage of people that stay for a bit bigger tasks and a number of
> >them become important contributors.
> >If e.g. you make it public that for CDT things like the following are
> >acceptable:
> >* use try_with_resources
> >* use the java 7 exception ease of use
> >* string in switch
> >* foreach, etc.
> >
> >And these patches get accepted easily. Some of them might be willing to
> >even try harder tasks like "port CDT to use org.eclipse.ui.console".
> >This is a guess of course but it seems to have worked well for
> >LibreOffice.
> >
> >Alexander Kurtakov
> >
> >>
> >> Doug.
> >>
> >> From: Denis Roy < denis.roy@xxxxxxxxxxx >
> >> Reply-To: Cross project issues < cross-project-issues-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx >
> >> Date: Friday, 12 July, 2013 6:50 PM
> >> To: " cross-project-issues-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx " <
> >> cross-project-issues-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx >
> >> Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] FW: [Doug on the Eclipse CDT]
> >>New
> >> comment on "Eclipse smells kind of dead"???.
> >>
> >> On 07/12/2013 12:25 PM, Doug Schaefer wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> It is. And I'm sure there are hate sites for every tool people use.
> >>Eclipse
> >> isn't unique that way.
> >>
> >> My point is that user experience is so important to our success, we
> >>need to
> >> be sensitive to the issues our users are facing. There are a lot of such
> >> issues marked WONTFIX, and CDT is as guilty of that as anyone. I'm just
> >> wondering how we fix it.
> >>
> >> As a committer, I'd be selling the community needs to BigCorp
> >>management. If
> >> BigCorp's products are built on Eclipse, and Eclipse comes to have the
> >> reputation of "suck", then BigCorp's products will inherit that. Since
> >>the
> >> users of today are the managers of tomorrow, these managers won't
> >>purchase
> >> products that are based on "suck".
> >>
> >> I'll do my part here: I think the eclipse.org website (including the
> >>Bugzilla
> >> UI) is starting to suck, and I've already begun selling the idea to the
> >> powers that be. Not that they need much convincing :)
> >>
> >> D.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Doug.
> >>
> >> From: Denis Roy < denis.roy@xxxxxxxxxxx >
> >> Reply-To: Cross project issues < cross-project-issues-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx >
> >> Date: Friday, 12 July, 2013 5:54 PM
> >> To: " cross-project-issues-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx " <
> >> cross-project-issues-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx >
> >> Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] FW: [Doug on the Eclipse CDT]
> >>New
> >> comment on "Eclipse smells kind of dead"???.
> >>
> >> Actually, I think it is awesome feedback, since there are only a
> >>handful of
> >> issues that seem to raise the anger levels.
> >>
> >> I was able to trace a few of the top items to some old bugs:
> >>
> >> File out of sync:
> >> https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=228039
> >>
> >> Line numbers on by default:
> >> https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=191154
> >>
> >>
> >> Those bugs are fairly old and both are closed WONTFIX. It would be
> >> interesting if they could be reopened for discussion.
> >>
> >> Denis
> >>
> >>
> >> On 07/12/2013 11:31 AM, Doug Schaefer wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> http://www.ihateeclipse.com ???
> >>
> >> Pretty awesome feedback from our passionate user base.
> >>
> >> :D
> >>
> >> From: " cdtdoug@xxxxxxxxx " < cdtdoug@xxxxxxxxx >
> >> Date: Friday, 12 July, 2013 5:29 PM
> >> To: Doug Schaefer < dschaefer@xxxxxxx >
> >> Subject: Fw: [Doug on the Eclipse CDT] New comment on "Eclipse smells
> >>kind of
> >> dead"???.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>    
> >> From: Alex Lagarde
> >> Sent: Friday, July 12, 2013 11:25 AM
> >> To: cdtdoug@xxxxxxxxx
> >> Subject: [Doug on the Eclipse CDT] New comment on "Eclipse smells kind
> >>of
> >> dead"???.
> >>
> >> Alex Lagarde has left a new comment on your post " "Eclipse smells kind
> >>of
> >> dead"??? ":
> >>
> >> Interesting post. Maybe even worst than bugzillas that get no answer are
> >> general complaints about Eclipse/Projects that never were raised as
> >>issues.
> >> That's why this Website, as painfull as it is, provides very interesting
> >> feedback http://www.ihateeclipse.com/
> >>
> >> We may have to think about a better way for end-user to raise such
> >>"feelings"
> >> (maybe an amazon-like rating system which would allow to very quickly
> >>rate
> >> from 0 to 5 stars a feature or a project).
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Posted by Alex Lagarde to Doug on the Eclipse CDT at 4:25 PM GMT+1
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> cross-project-issues-dev mailing list
> >> cross-project-issues-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
> >> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev
> >>
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> >https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev
>
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