RE: [cross-project-issues-dev] Getting started page

["Wayne Beaton" <wayne@xxxxxxxxxxx>]

> This is kind of an unfortunate late-breaking development. How 
> "too much work" was it? 
> Have you also considered the extra download time and 
> installed on-disk foot print? 
> Have others (users) complained its too much work? 

My thought was that it should be no harder to get started with Eclipse post
Callisto than it is today. Today, Java developers can download the Eclipse
SDK and get started. Assembling a Java IDE from parts on the Callisto
Discovery site is more work than that.

> I ask, because there is a huge difference .. the non-sdk 
> versions (of platform runtime feature, pde runtime, and java 
> runtime) is only about 70 Megs (installed, and download, if 
> using Java 5, where the pack200 files are used) whereas the 
> sdk versions (to get source and isv docs) is about 130 megs 
> installed, and 120 megs download). 

I could argue that you don't need the PDE in a non-SDK version. If you're
building stuff with the PDE, you probably want/need the source code as well.
But I digress.

> Do users consider this insignificant? Do the major need or 
> want the source and ISV docs? 
> Maybe so. (but multiplied by 10's of 1000's of downloads, it 
> is also an infrastructure consideration). 

I know that some people seem to think that the extra MBs are a big deal.
Certainly there are folks out there who compare Eclipse against NetBeans and
see that the Eclipse download is way bigger (this is one thing that their
evangelists like to pick on us for). I believe that the majority of folks
out there are just using Eclipse to build Java applications and do not
want/need the PDE+sources. I believe that most of these people don't
particularly care about the extra bulk.

> Perhaps a sort of compromise would be to have always have 
> some nearby handy link to "how to minimize your downloads and 
> installed footprint" ... then users can more easily decide, 
> and make their own choice, and we can see how many use it? 

That's an idea worth pursuing. I'll try and incorporate something like this
into the next iteration of the page.

> My fear is that some of us have just grown used to doing 
> things a certain way, and its hard to see things from the 
> users point of view. 

I have this challenge as well and welcome your output. I have a student
working with me who has no prior experience with Eclipse. I've been trying
to solicit feedback from her as much as possible in this effort.

> Plus ... bugs/feature enhancements should be open for things 
> you'd like to see improved, if you don't mind me saying so. 

I don't mind you saying so. And I completely agree. There are several bugs
that currently discuss the need for an Eclipse IDE.


> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Wayne Beaton" <wayne@xxxxxxxxxxx> 
> Sent by: cross-project-issues-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx 
> 
> 06/16/2006 11:55 PM 
> Please respond to
> Cross project issues <cross-project-issues-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> 
> To
> "'Cross project issues'" <cross-project-issues-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx> 
> cc
> Subject
> RE: [cross-project-issues-dev] Getting started page
> 
> 	
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I chose the SDK because it is the closest thing that we have 
> to an IDE. I
> went through the steps required to build a Java IDE starting from the
> Platform Runtime Binaries and decided that it was too much 
> work. I figure
> that new Java developers (i.e. folks using Eclipse to build Java
> applications) would be turned off it required too many steps 
> to just build a
> Java IDE. I also figured that Eclipse plug-in/RCP developers 
> need the SDK.
> Ideally, I'd like to point the user to a Java IDE (i.e. no 
> PDE or source
> code), but that's a discussion for another day. I'll likely 
> have the C/C++
> route start from the Platform Runtime Binaries.
> 
> I have planned to build an "Installing Callisto Features" 
> screen cam. I will
> also hunt down/build some decent instructions.
> 
> I'll make sure that the JVM link is corrected.
> 
> BTW: It would be really handy if there were a way to link 
> directly to the
> SDK or Platform Runtime Binaries. Even just a label on the 
> existing sections
> on the download page would work. Or have I just missed it? 
> I'll hunt harder
> and make a bug report...
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Wayne
> --
> Wayne Beaton
> The Eclipse Foundation
> wayne.beaton@xxxxxxxxxxx
> http://www.eclipse.org
> http://wbeaton.blogspot.com/
> http://www.planeteclipse.org/planet/
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: cross-project-issues-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx 
> > [mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] On 
> > Behalf Of Kim Moir
> > Sent: June 16, 2006 4:40 PM
> > To: Cross project issues
> > Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Getting started page
> > 
> > 
> > Looks good! 
> > 
> > My comments: 
> > With  these pages, it states to download the eclipse SDK.  On 
> > the existing Callisto page 
> > http://www.eclipse.org/callisto/discovery.php, it states to 
> > download the platform runtime and run update against the 
> > Callisto update site to get the other features. Which is 
> > correct?  Also, today we are only providing runtime features 
> > to the Callisto update site. 
> > 
> > There should be a link to the page that describes how to use 
> > update manager to install the Callisto features.  This will 
> > alleviate a lot of newbie questions for people new to eclipse 
> > or unfamiliar with running update manager. 
> > 
> > The link to the JVMs page should point to the 3.2 page when 
> > it is available. 
> > 
> > I agree with Pascal's statement regarding managing 
> > expectations.  Although Callisto is targeted to vendors 
> > consuming eclipse, it will appeal to the broader user 
> > community.  I would expect more integration with the next 
> > year's simultaneous release but we should not try to raise 
> > expectations so that a regular user or journalists look to 
> > Callisto to provide a integrated product and are disappointed. 
> > 
> > Kim 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > "Wayne Beaton" <wayne@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent by: cross-project-issues-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx 
> > 
> > 06/16/2006 02:18 PM
> > Please respond to
> > Cross project issues <cross-project-issues-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> > 
> > To
> > <cross-project-issues-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> > cc
> > Subject
> > [cross-project-issues-dev] Getting started page
> > 
> >                  
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Hey folks. We've been putting some thought into some 
> "getting started"
> > information for the Callisto landing page. What we're 
> > thinking is that we'll include the three fancy graphics on 
> this page:
> > 
> > http://eclipse.org/callisto/getstarted.php
> > 
> > Onto the landing page.
> > 
> > So...
> > 
> > I'm curious to learn how you feel about this page. Is it a 
> > good idea? Does it come close to providing what folks need? 
> > Do you like the format? Is the way it works more or less obvious?
> > 
> > Feedback and comments welcome.
> > 
> > I know that the C/C++ page doesn't exist yet. That's next 
> > (assuming enough of you like what's there so far).
> > 
> > And, I need a good concise (i.e. one sentence) description of 
> > DataTools.
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > 
> > Wayne
> > --
> > Wayne Beaton
> > The Eclipse Foundation
> > wayne.beaton@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > http://www.eclipse.org
> > http://wbeaton.blogspot.com/
> > http://www.planeteclipse.org/planet/
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > cross-project-issues-dev mailing list
> > cross-project-issues-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> cross-project-issues-dev mailing list
> cross-project-issues-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev
> 
> 
>