Re: [wtp-pmc] Comment on section 1.7.2.4 PHP Tools Project of the Web To

[Robert Goodman <goodmanr@xxxxxxxxxx>]

Yes there were a lot of improvements
between EclipseCon and when the IBM side of the project left. It still
wasn't prefect. We ran into a lot of problems trying to put a different
set of GUIs on top the WTP server infrastructure, We never could resolve
all the problems which is why the PHP IDE tean stopped using all the server
infrastructure. I need to free up some time and drag the code into eclipse
to remember all the issues. There are two different issues . There are
the technical issues we ran into trying to put a different GUI on top of
the server infrastructure. Then there is the Black Turtleneck issues of
what the GUIs should look like. 

   Thanks
     Bob

Robert Goodman
IBM Emerging Technologies
goodmanr@xxxxxxxxxx
512-838-8824    T.L. 678-8824

Arthur Ryman <ryman@xxxxxxxxxx>
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Subject	Re: [wtp-pmc] Comment on section 1.7.2.4 PHP        Tools        Project        of        the        Web        Tools Platform 2.0 Plan

Bob, 

Has the debug situation improved since EclipseCon? That's where I saw the
demo. 

Arthur Ryman,
IBM Software Group, Rational Division

blog: http://ryman.eclipsedevelopersjournal.com/
phone: +1-905-413-3077, TL 969-3077
assistant: +1-905-413-2411, TL 969-2411
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Robert Goodman <goodmanr@xxxxxxxxxx>
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11/21/2006 05:40 PM

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Subject	Re: [wtp-pmc] Comment on section 1.7.2.4 PHP Tools        Project        of        the        Web        Tools Platform 2.0 Plan

The PHP IDE supported a number of options for running/debugging PHP files.
One was the ability to select a certain file in a project and run it. It
didn't create a launch configuration for every page that was debugged and
you could set be a breakpoint in a PHP file. You could also select the
project or a directory in a project and run the PHP program. 

I think running a PHP program and an Ajax program is more like running
a Java program than running a J2EE program which the server framework is
based on. Which is especially true for a PHP program, since it can be run
using the php.exe and doesn't have to be deployed out to a server. There
is no deployment descriptor for both PHP and Ajax, but there are project
specific options that determine how it is run. I don't think the problem
is specific to how the PHP engine works. I think that there is a difference
between and HTTP server and an J2EE server which independent of whether
you are running PHP, Ajax, or HTML. 

In the case of PHP we wanted to make the GUIs simpler than the standard
WTP server GUIs. The process of trying to fit a different set of GUIs on
top of the WTP infrastructure caused a number of issues and made it a little
clumsily. Arthur, the version that you saw was an early version of the
GUI's. In the early days of the project the IBM and Zend members of the
team had a different view of what the GUI's should look and the team iterated
thru a number of different GUI's. 

Though this is changing, there is a difference between PHP developers and
a J2EE developers.  One of the reason people are using PHP is that
they don't want to put up with the complexity of J2EE. In Zend Studio a
developer only had to specify a URL and then select Run/Debug. He didn't
have to worry about server creation and management in the IDE. I think
the fact that the developers community is different is going to be the
most difficult issue to deal with. 

 Thanks 
    Bob 



Robert Goodman
IBM Emerging Technologies
goodmanr@xxxxxxxxxx
512-838-8824    T.L. 678-8824

Arthur Ryman <ryman@xxxxxxxxxx>
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Subject	Re: [wtp-pmc] Comment on section 1.7.2.4 PHP Tools Project        of        the        Web        Tools Platform 2.0 Plan

Guys, 

I suspect there is more behind this decision by the PHP team. I saw a demo
of how debugging PHP was implemented and was shocked at how clumsy it was.
They seemed to be creating a new launch configuration for  every page
they were debugging. Very awkward and different from the simplicity of
putting a breakpoint on a JSP. Maybe there is some huge difference in the
PHP engine that is driving this divergence? 

Arthur Ryman,
IBM Software Group, Rational Division

blog: http://ryman.eclipsedevelopersjournal.com/
phone: +1-905-413-3077, TL 969-3077
assistant: +1-905-413-2411, TL 969-2411
fax: +1-905-413-4920, TL 969-4920
mobile: +1-416-939-5063, text: 4169395063@xxxxxxx

Lawrence Mandel/Toronto/IBM@IBMCA
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11/13/2006 09:53 PM

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Subject	Re: [wtp-pmc] Comment on section 1.7.2.4 PHP Tools Project of        the        Web        Tools Platform 2.0 Plan

Bob, 

You're right that WTP has very limited resources and I don't know that
these resources can handle all the changes on their own. The main point
that I wanted to make (and perhaps wasn't clear in my previous post) was
that I think there should be one way to work with servers in Eclipse. WTP
seems like the right venue to work on server tools given that it is the
Web Tools Platform (and PHP is, as I understand it, a language project).
If the PHP team has some developers that can work on server tools I'd like
to see them contribute their changes to WTP and create one great set of
server tools rather than create another set of server tools in the PHP
project that will add confusion when both PHP and WTP are installed and
in my mind is outside of the scope of the PHP project (although please
correct me if I've misunderstood the project proposal).

Lawrence Mandel

Software Developer
IBM Rational Software
Phone: 905 - 413 - 3814   Fax: 905 - 413 - 4920
lmandel@xxxxxxxxxx

Robert Goodman <goodmanr@xxxxxxxxxx>
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11/13/2006 08:01 PM

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Subject	Re: [wtp-pmc] Comment on section 1.7.2.4 PHP Tools Project of the        Web        Tools Platform 2.0 Plan

Lawrence 

I and Brian Burns and a number of phone conferences with Tim Deboer where
we discuss the number of issues that PHP team has with the server. Brian
and I worked on the PHP IDE. Brian did most of the HTTP Server based on
the WTP infrastructure. Neither Brian or I are working on the PHP IDE anymore.

You made the statement that WTP users are already familiar with WTP serve
tools, but PHP users are not. PHP developers are not J2EE developers. The
simple fact is that the WTP server GUIs are not very intuitive. To change
a server configuration after it is created, you have to go to the server
view, select a server, right click on the server and select open. There
are people who have used eclipse that didn't know this is how it worked
until I told them. We ran into other problems like the publishing model
seemed to be baked into the based infrastructure and wasn't easily extended/changed.

I can set up a meeting, but does WTP really have resources to do anything
about it.   


thanks 
 Bob 


Robert Goodman
IBM Emerging Technologies
goodmanr@xxxxxxxxxx
512-838-8824    T.L. 678-8824

Lawrence Mandel <lmandel@xxxxxxxxxx>
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Subject	Re: [wtp-pmc] Comment on section 1.7.2.4 PHP Tools Project of the Web        Tools Platform 2.0 Plan

Bob, 

I'm not familiar with the background for this issue but this sounds like
a bad situation to me. I think where possible projects should communicate
and work together to avoid duplicating function. WRT servers, I think Eclipse
should have one way to create and control servers as users will likely
want to install both Java and PHP Web development tools. As WTP users are
already familiar with the WTP server tools I really think that creating
another way to control servers for PHP is a mistake. (Actually, I think
it's a mistake for the PHP project to not seamlessly integrate with WTP
as I think Eclipse users will expect it to.) Remember, many users will
install Eclipse, WTP and PHP and expect all the projects to work together.

Instead of creating a competing server framework in the PHP project, which
seems to me to be out of scope for the project (the creation review slides
for the project state one of the goals is to "Leverage the existing
Web Tools Project in providing developers with PHP capabilities" [1]),
I'd like to see the PHP committers work with the WTP server tools team.
Can you set up a meeting between the two teams to discuss the limitations/problems
the PHP team is having with the server tools? (Has this call already happened?)

[1] http://www.eclipse.org/php/documents/PHP%20IDE%20-%20creation%20review.pdf

Thanks, 

Lawrence Mandel

Software Developer
IBM Rational Software
Phone: 905 - 413 - 3814   Fax: 905 - 413 - 4920
lmandel@xxxxxxxxxx

Robert Goodman <goodmanr@xxxxxxxxxx>
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11/12/2006 10:39 PM

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Subject	[wtp-pmc] Comment on section 1.7.2.4 PHP Tools Project of the Web Tools Platform 2.0 Plan

The PHP tools project has dropped or is planning to dropped support for
the Apache Server built on top of the WTP server infrastructure. The PHP
team is building there own Apache server support which isn't based on the
WTP server infrastructure. ATF has picked up the Apache Server based on
the WTP infrastructure and integrated it into ATF. In the process the ATF
team changed the GUIs back to match the WTP server GUIs for creating a
Server. The PHP team didn't think that the WTP GUIs were very intuitive.
Since these GUIs are baked into the WTP infrastructure, changing the GUIs
caused a number of problems. Eventually the PHP team decided to move off
the WTP server infrastructure. 

Thanks 
 Bob 

Robert Goodman
IBM Emerging Technologies
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