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Objet : wtp-jst-dev Digest, Vol 2, Issue 4


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Today's Topics:

   1. RE: Notes from today's EJB3 meeting? (Robert Greene)
   2. RE: Notes from today's EJB3 meeting? (Arthur Ryman)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 09:29:25 -0700
From: "Robert Greene" <rgreene@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: RE: [wtp-jst-dev] Notes from today's EJB3 meeting?
To: "J2EE Standard Tools developer discussions"
	<wtp-jst-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: <wtp-jst-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID:
	<DED902689A686B4A8BE0775EC554D598013A05D9@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Hi Arthur,
 
So, it seems I have catching up to do regarding the WTP subprojects :-)  
 
"The scope of JST is standards defined by JCP for J2EE, which certainly includes EJB 3.0. Any project that supports EJB 3.0 should build on the EJB support currently in WTP. "
[RCG]  I think it would be important to understand what you mean why you say EJB 3.0 projects should "build"  upon the current support.   Can we identify the areas that you think are important?   I know some of the things are those which have moved to DTP and we are working with those, but I suspect there are other areas you are thinking about.  Can you elaborate?
 
Thanks,
-Robert 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: wtp-jst-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:wtp-jst-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Arthur Ryman
Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 7:18 AM
To: J2EE Standard Tools developer discussions
Cc: wtp-jst-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx; wtp-jst-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [wtp-jst-dev] Notes from today's EJB3 meeting?



Robert, 

Nice summary, but I'd like to correct one statement. WTP is not restricted to J2EE server managed runtimes. It also includes client programming. In many cases, the client will be a Web application that runs in a J2EE server, but that is not the only case. 

WTP includes the WST subproject which deals with Web standards and includes tools for client side technologies such as HTML, JavaScript, and CSS. 

Also, the the JST subproject supports clients that access components that run in J2EE servers or other compliant Web service servers. For example, the current JAX-RPC spec includes both client and server programming models. The spec will be split to support client access to Web services that do not include a full J2EE environement, i.e. the next JAX-RPC will support J2SE based Web service clients. 

The scope of JST is standards defined by JCP for J2EE, which certainly includes EJB 3.0. Any project that supports EJB 3.0 should build on the EJB support currently in WTP. 

Arthur Ryman,
Rational Desktop Tools Development

phone: +1-905-413-3077, TL 969-3077
assistant: +1-905-413-2411, TL 969-2411
fax: +1-905-413-4920, TL 969-4920
mobile: +1-416-939-5063, text: 4169395063@xxxxxxx
intranet: http://labweb.torolab.ibm.com/DRY6/ 



"Robert Greene" <rgreene@xxxxxxxxxxx> 
Sent by: wtp-jst-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx 


06/10/2005 11:53 AM 


Please respond to
J2EE Standard Tools developer discussions



To
<wtp-jst-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx> 

cc

Subject
RE: [wtp-jst-dev] Notes from today's EJB3 meeting?

	




Hello all,

Below is my contact info as well. 

I am additionally the project manager for this open source initiative.
I did not take any notes, but can summarize the main points as I recall them.

(1) There is a belief that this technology is very application developer centric.   I think everyone agreed on this point.  

(2) There is the thought by WTP PMC that given (1) and the fact that this is based on a J2EE driven spec that it may be best to host the project within the WTP project.

(3) There are 2 considerations opposing the above.

a)  Whether longer term in the technology adoption lifecycle the use might find it's way closer to the DBA's.  The point was that developers can with this technology ignore the database, one button click and they are mapped.  However, existing schema and/or the realities of performance and scalability will drive smarter decisions regarding the selected mapping patterns. Plus there are other features like named queries where SQL execution plans can be reviewed and improved by someone who understand the relational schema better (DBA's).   If ORM becomes the predominant way of dealing with the database and DBA's want to retain control over relational schema and it's access outside of the language contsructs then they may assume the role of "mapper".  I do not have a strong opinion regarding this point, only wanted to raise the issue as a valid consideration.

b) Because the ORM technology is spec'ed to work both inside and outside of application server managed environments and WTP is very much dedicated to J2EE then perhaps it belongs somewhere else.   One potential "other place" is DTP since this technology is so tightly coupled with data access in general and ORM was originally defined in it's top level project proposal.  Additionally, the DTP has several code bases that are integral parts of what is needed by ORM.   You can view ORM as a consumer of DTP components.  

(4) Regardless of the above discussion on where the project belongs longer term, there was a suggestion that ideally we should only have one project and we ( Oracle, JBoss, Versant, Others ) should find a way to work together to achieve that goal.

(5) I suggested a discussion regarding (4) could start by a discussion of where the interested parties are headed, what is currently implemented and available and how can those things that are available can be combined to bring a quality solution to the Eclipse community as in a meaningful timeframe.   I indicated that we are reworking our previous plug-in to be properly integrated with existing Eclipse project code.  We have been heavily focused on full SWT, forward engineering,  annotations, Live ER diagrams, context sensitive mapping pattern selectivity.   The folks from JBoss indicated that they have been focusing on reverse engineering work.

The following is a high level overview of what we are doing.

Created the ability to enable a project for ORM configuration and created a framework for associating a runtime plug-in with a project.  We have created one example of how to use the framework using our open source EJB runtime.   Created a framework for the context sensitive mapping GUI to reflect the capabilities of the runtime currently associated with an enabled project.  We have used our open source EJB runtime to show how to use this context sensitive GUI framework.  Created synchronized views of mapping information ( source code editors,  mapping pattern editors, live ER editors ) where a change in any view is reflected in the others.  So, for example if someone adds an annotation to the source code the appropriate mapping possibilities automatically appear in the mapping view and the default mapping is selected and represented by a live ER diagram.   Created an extensible framework for allowing vendors to provide customizable input output capabilities to accommodate al
 ternative runtimes.  Used this framework to show an example of outputting meta data for our open source EJB runtime.   All of this is driven by an EMF model that vendors may extend to suit their needs.


Rather than working on reverse engineering over the last 6 weeks, the proposed JSR220 committers have been reworking to integrate with Eclipse code base.  Given that the JBoss group has done a lot around reverse engineering, perhaps this is one starting point for looking at integrating the code bases?    In recent additions to the Oracle proposal, I have seen some screen shots of expected capabilites.  Perhaps we can talk about these in more detail and understand what has been done so we can understand overlap with JBoss and Versant stuff.  Then we could fill in the holes on a phase 1 of a complete solution.   


-Robert


Robert Charles Greene
Vice President, Product Strategy
Versant Corporation
6539 Dumbarton Circle
Fremont, CA 94555
Office: (510)789-1627
Mobile: (925)577-4634
_______________________________________________
wtp-jst-dev mailing list
wtp-jst-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/wtp-jst-dev



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Message: 2
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 13:34:01 -0400
From: Arthur Ryman <ryman@xxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: RE: [wtp-jst-dev] Notes from today's EJB3 meeting?
To: J2EE Standard Tools developer discussions
	<wtp-jst-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: "J2EE Standard Tools developer discussions"
	<wtp-jst-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>,	wtp-jst-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID:
	<OF1D1E9B32.28C2767F-ON8525701F.005EC4C7-8525701F.00607F05@xxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Richard,

The inclusion of the Data tools in WTP was somewhat of a stretch, but we 
justified on the grounds that most Web apps access databases and at the 
time there was no other Eclipse project to host Data. Also, we focused on 
the "standards" theme since the aspects of Data that WTP was focusing on 
was defined by ANSI (i.e. SQL editing), and there was JDBC, JSP tags, 
SQLJ, etc. defined by JCP.

However, when Sybase proposed DTP, we were the first ones to say that Data 
tools should move there. We even had a joint WTP/DTP meeting at 
EclipseCON. I believe everyone wants Eclipse projects to have the "right" 
architecture.

When I say EJB 3.0 should build on the current WTP support for EJB, I mean 
that EJB 3.0 should fit in with the existing models, editors, views, 
wizards, etc. For example, EJBs are currently rendered as first class J2EE 
components in our J2EE Project Explorer view. Also, we have models for all 
the J2EE 1.4 deployment descriptors. We are planning to support J2EE 1.5 
in our post WTP 1.0 release.

I think the optimal way to achieve seamless UI and schedule integration is 
to host all aspects of J2EE 1.5 development within the WTP project. There 
is a lot of experience in the current WTP team and if we combine this with 
experts in EJB 3.0, we will achieve the best possible result for Eclipse 
users and ISVs.

Arthur Ryman,
Rational Desktop Tools Development

phone: +1-905-413-3077, TL 969-3077
assistant: +1-905-413-2411, TL 969-2411
fax: +1-905-413-4920, TL 969-4920
mobile: +1-416-939-5063, text: 4169395063@xxxxxxx
intranet: http://labweb.torolab.ibm.com/DRY6/



"Robert Greene" <rgreene@xxxxxxxxxxx> 
Sent by: wtp-jst-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
06/13/2005 12:29 PM
Please respond to
J2EE Standard Tools developer discussions


To
"J2EE Standard Tools developer discussions" <wtp-jst-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
cc
<wtp-jst-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject
RE: [wtp-jst-dev] Notes from today's EJB3 meeting?






Hi Arthur,
 
So, it seems I have catching up to do regarding the WTP subprojects :-) 
 
"The scope of JST is standards defined by JCP for J2EE, which certainly 
includes EJB 3.0. Any project that supports EJB 3.0 should build on the 
EJB support currently in WTP. "
[RCG]  I think it would be important to understand what you mean why you 
say EJB 3.0 projects should "build"  upon the current support.   Can we 
identify the areas that you think are important?   I know some of the 
things are those which have moved to DTP and we are working with those, 
but I suspect there are other areas you are thinking about.  Can you 
elaborate?
 
Thanks,
-Robert 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: wtp-jst-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx 
[mailto:wtp-jst-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Arthur Ryman
Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 7:18 AM
To: J2EE Standard Tools developer discussions
Cc: wtp-jst-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx; wtp-jst-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [wtp-jst-dev] Notes from today's EJB3 meeting?


Robert, 

Nice summary, but I'd like to correct one statement. WTP is not restricted 
to J2EE server managed runtimes. It also includes client programming. In 
many cases, the client will be a Web application that runs in a J2EE 
server, but that is not the only case. 

WTP includes the WST subproject which deals with Web standards and 
includes tools for client side technologies such as HTML, JavaScript, and 
CSS. 

Also, the the JST subproject supports clients that access components that 
run in J2EE servers or other compliant Web service servers. For example, 
the current JAX-RPC spec includes both client and server programming 
models. The spec will be split to support client access to Web services 
that do not include a full J2EE environement, i.e. the next JAX-RPC will 
support J2SE based Web service clients. 

The scope of JST is standards defined by JCP for J2EE, which certainly 
includes EJB 3.0. Any project that supports EJB 3.0 should build on the 
EJB support currently in WTP. 

Arthur Ryman,
Rational Desktop Tools Development

phone: +1-905-413-3077, TL 969-3077
assistant: +1-905-413-2411, TL 969-2411
fax: +1-905-413-4920, TL 969-4920
mobile: +1-416-939-5063, text: 4169395063@xxxxxxx
intranet: http://labweb.torolab.ibm.com/DRY6/ 


"Robert Greene" <rgreene@xxxxxxxxxxx> 
Sent by: wtp-jst-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx 
06/10/2005 11:53 AM 

Please respond to
J2EE Standard Tools developer discussions



To
<wtp-jst-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx> 
cc

Subject
RE: [wtp-jst-dev] Notes from today's EJB3 meeting?








Hello all,

Below is my contact info as well. 

I am additionally the project manager for this open source initiative.
I did not take any notes, but can summarize the main points as I recall 
them.

(1) There is a belief that this technology is very application developer 
centric.   I think everyone agreed on this point. 

(2) There is the thought by WTP PMC that given (1) and the fact that this 
is based on a J2EE driven spec that it may be best to host the project 
within the WTP project.

(3) There are 2 considerations opposing the above.

a)  Whether longer term in the technology adoption lifecycle the use might 
find it's way closer to the DBA's.  The point was that developers can with 
this technology ignore the database, one button click and they are mapped. 
 However, existing schema and/or the realities of performance and 
scalability will drive smarter decisions regarding the selected mapping 
patterns. Plus there are other features like named queries where SQL 
execution plans can be reviewed and improved by someone who understand the 
relational schema better (DBA's).   If ORM becomes the predominant way of 
dealing with the database and DBA's want to retain control over relational 
schema and it's access outside of the language contsructs then they may 
assume the role of "mapper".  I do not have a strong opinion regarding 
this point, only wanted to raise the issue as a valid consideration.

b) Because the ORM technology is spec'ed to work both inside and outside 
of application server managed environments and WTP is very much dedicated 
to J2EE then perhaps it belongs somewhere else.   One potential "other 
place" is DTP since this technology is so tightly coupled with data access 
in general and ORM was originally defined in it's top level project 
proposal.  Additionally, the DTP has several code bases that are integral 
parts of what is needed by ORM.   You can view ORM as a consumer of DTP 
components. 

(4) Regardless of the above discussion on where the project belongs longer 
term, there was a suggestion that ideally we should only have one project 
and we ( Oracle, JBoss, Versant, Others ) should find a way to work 
together to achieve that goal.

(5) I suggested a discussion regarding (4) could start by a discussion of 
where the interested parties are headed, what is currently implemented and 
available and how can those things that are available can be combined to 
bring a quality solution to the Eclipse community as in a meaningful 
timeframe.   I indicated that we are reworking our previous plug-in to be 
properly integrated with existing Eclipse project code.  We have been 
heavily focused on full SWT, forward engineering,  annotations, Live ER 
diagrams, context sensitive mapping pattern selectivity.   The folks from 
JBoss indicated that they have been focusing on reverse engineering work.

The following is a high level overview of what we are doing.

Created the ability to enable a project for ORM configuration and created 
a framework for associating a runtime plug-in with a project.  We have 
created one example of how to use the framework using our open source EJB 
runtime.   Created a framework for the context sensitive mapping GUI to 
reflect the capabilities of the runtime currently associated with an 
enabled project.  We have used our open source EJB runtime to show how to 
use this context sensitive GUI framework.  Created synchronized views of 
mapping information ( source code editors,  mapping pattern editors, live 
ER editors ) where a change in any view is reflected in the others.  So, 
for example if someone adds an annotation to the source code the 
appropriate mapping possibilities automatically appear in the mapping view 
and the default mapping is selected and represented by a live ER diagram.  
Created an extensible framework for allowing vendors to provide 
customizable input output capabilities to accommodate alternative 
runtimes.  Used this framework to show an example of outputting meta data 
for our open source EJB runtime.   All of this is driven by an EMF model 
that vendors may extend to suit their needs.


Rather than working on reverse engineering over the last 6 weeks, the 
proposed JSR220 committers have been reworking to integrate with Eclipse 
code base.  Given that the JBoss group has done a lot around reverse 
engineering, perhaps this is one starting point for looking at integrating 
the code bases?    In recent additions to the Oracle proposal, I have seen 
some screen shots of expected capabilites.  Perhaps we can talk about 
these in more detail and understand what has been done so we can 
understand overlap with JBoss and Versant stuff.  Then we could fill in 
the holes on a phase 1 of a complete solution. 


-Robert


Robert Charles Greene
Vice President, Product Strategy
Versant Corporation
6539 Dumbarton Circle
Fremont, CA 94555
Office: (510)789-1627
Mobile: (925)577-4634
_______________________________________________
wtp-jst-dev mailing list
wtp-jst-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/wtp-jst-dev
_______________________________________________
wtp-jst-dev mailing list
wtp-jst-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/wtp-jst-dev

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