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Re: [rt-pmc] Virgo new web admin console and JavaScript support
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Thanks Tom. Sorry I forgot to send my apologies for yesterday's call - I was on vacation.
It turns out that the Eclipse Board is very likely to prefer the use of JQuery instead of MooTools and so we are looking into switching.
We had some input from another project with JavaScript experience and they too favoured JQuery over MooTools.
As input to the Board item on JQuery, I was asked if I could pull together any information on companies that are distributing JQuery as part of a commercial product. If anyone reading this list knows of some, please respond here or send me email (gnormington@xxxxxxxxx) if that's more appropriate. So far we are aware of:
* Microsoft have shipped JQuery with their Visual Studio product since 2008.
* Adobe include JQuery Mobile in their Dreamweaver IDE product.
Regards,
Glyn
On 21 Mar 2012, at 19:24, Thomas Watson wrote:
> We discussed this on the PMC call today. The group on the call (Tom,
> Markus, Doug, Jesse, Mike) agreed to allow the approval process to move
> forward. From a technical stance we did not feel we had the expertise in
> the area to either validate or invalidate your technical claims. In the
> end we agreed to trust in the Virgo leadership in picking the best
> technical solution for the Virgo project.
>
> Did you consult with other projects at eclipse that are heavy
> users/developers of JavaScript? For example, the Orion project?
>
> Tom
>
>
>
>
> |------------>
> | From: |
> |------------>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
> |Glyn Normington <gnormington@xxxxxxxxxx> |
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
> |------------>
> | To: |
> |------------>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
> |Runtime Project PMC mailing list <rt-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx>, |
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
> |------------>
> | Date: |
> |------------>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
> |03/20/2012 05:46 AM |
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
> |------------>
> | Subject: |
> |------------>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
> |Re: [rt-pmc] Virgo new web admin console and JavaScript support |
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
>
>
>
>
>
> I couldn't go into detail here even if I knew the detail, but I believe the
> main issue with MooTools was around provenance of the code and I think
> there were similar, but more serious issues with JQuery.
>
> MooTools has a MIT license and JQuery is dual licensed under GPL and MIT
> (Eclipse would clearly choose MIT), so these are certainly acceptable
> licenses.
>
> As for CQs, MooTools has 5472/5473 and JQuery 20 CQs including 6308 and
> 6134 for 1.7.1.
>
> But I don't think we should attempts to analyse the IP issues further here
> as the experts are in the Eclipse legal team. I am simply seeking a
> technical approval, so thanks for your vote of confidence.
>
> Regards,
> Glyn
>
> On 20 Mar 2012, at 10:37, Campo, Christian wrote:
>
> Hi Glyn,
>
> I pro everything :-). However you talked a lot about the technical
> issues. I am not soo deep in the IP issues, so I'd like to understand
> those. What are the licenses for JQuery and for MooTools. What are
> the CQs for both of them? Why is the one harder than the other
> IP-wise? I think that you are soo deep in the ongoing discussion that
> you lost me where the IP-problems are.
>
> Maybe that helps than everyone to start a discussion.
>
> thanks
> christian
>
> Von: Glyn Normington <gnormington@xxxxxxxxxx>
> Antworten an: Runtime Project PMC mailing list <rt-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> Datum: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 10:36:29 +0100
> An: Runtime Project PMC mailing list <rt-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> Betreff: [rt-pmc] Virgo new web admin console and JavaScript support
>
> We have developed a new web admin console for Virgo and are having
> difficulty getting the JavaScript library we selected, MooTools,
> through the Eclipse IP process. The alternative is to use JQuery
> which is being used by some other projects. JQuery also had IP issues
> and required Eclipse Board approval in order to be used by Eclipse
> projects. I would like the Eclipse Board to approve Virgo's use of
> MooTools and I need the RT PMC's support before proceeding further.I
> would be grateful for feedback from RT PMC members.
>
> Firstly, I hope it is easy to agree that Virgo needs JavaScript
> support in order to provide a modern UI in its web admin console.
> JQuery and MooTools are the front-runners in this field. We have
> previously used dojo, but this has serious limitations and is proving
> unworkable for the improvements we are now introducing.
>
> Secondly, can we agree that Virgo should be allowed to use JQuery as
> a fall-back position if MooTools does not make it through the Board?
> Please note that if the Board decides that MooTools is unacceptable
> we would want to use the latest JQuery 1.7.x which would also require
> approval by the Board as the latest version they have already
> approved is 1.6.x.
>
> Thirdly and finally, I would like the RT PMC's support to request
> Board approval for MooTools 1.4.x (all of it, including "core" and
> "more", to be clear). The rationale for Virgo's use of MooTools is as
> follows.
>
> Virgo has been prototyping a new web admin console with an improved
> architecture such that it can be used to manage non-web Virgo
> distributions. The user interface has been radically reworked and
> improved.
>
> The current Virgo web admin console uses dojo for its user interface,
> which we have found to be pretty inflexible. Also the use of dojo
> puts us in quite a risky position as we were only able to obtain IP
> approval for a subset of dojo and changes to the console could well
> have required us to step into the currently unapproved subset. But
> inflexibility is what forced us to look for a better alternative. We
> considered MooTools and JQuery, but decided on MooTools as explained
> below.
>
> JQuery is probably a significant advance on dojo, but suffers from
> some basic inflexibility compared to MooTools. MooTools provides a
> lower-level kit of parts which enable high level user interface
> widgets, such as trees, to be constructed with precisely the
> characteristics required. With JQuery it looks likely to be a lot
> harder to customise the supplied high-level constructs to accurately
> satisfy our requirements. We certainly found customising the high
> level constructs in dojo very difficult. By comparison, customising
> MooTools has been very easy.
>
> We understand that the IP risk of JQuery is greater than that of
> MooTools, with no obvious technical benefit and a substantial risk of
> being unsuitable for the Virgo web admin console's requirements, so
> from a Virgo project perspective, MooTools seems better on all
> fronts.
>
> Given that both JQuery and MooTools carry some IP risk, having Virgo
> use MooTools and other projects use JQuery will reduce the overall IP
> risk to Eclipse.org.
>
> To summarise, I would like the RT PMC's thoughts, and (eventually or
> right now) support in the form of +1's, for:
>
> 1. Virgo's use of JavaScript and therefore JQuery or MooTools.
> 2. Virgo's use of JQuery 1.7 if MooTools proves to be unacceptable to
> the Eclipse Board.
> 3. Virgo's use of MooTools 1.4.x as the preferred technical solution
> subject to approval by the Eclipse Board.
>
> Regards,
> Glyn
>
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