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RE: SWT History and Design Decisions (WAS: [platform-swt-dev] AWT Toolkit using SWT (was: From Swing to SWT))
Why do you claim that static-generated code is so evil? I vastly prefer it.
 
A few reasons it's better than resource-file usage:
  • Performance-wise, it'll always beat parsing a file then creating the UI.
    • Note that this can depend upon the way the code is generated -- a good code generator should be able to optimize and determine where lazy instantiation would be useful.
  • Debugging-wise, you can walk through the UI being built (and it makes sense), as opposed to walking through generic builder code that walks a GUI description. (This is similar to why LL parsers are so much easier to debug than LALR parsers, if that means anything to anyone -- I'm a compiler guy ;)
  • Security-wise, it's a heck of a lot harder for someone to mess up the UI (they cannot simply edit a textual representation of the UI and mess it up)
  • If someone wants to tweak the generated code, they can. (Note that this is a bad idea, IMHO...)
OTOH, having a textual representation to manipulate can be nice if you want the end user to be able to tweak the UI. However, they cannot tweak in the same manner they could tweak the generated code. (Of course this in itself is a good thing ;)
 
Another argument for textual representations could be that you might be able to use the same description for several different languages and environments, though the representations typically chosen usually are quite specific to one language or another.
 
-- Scott
-----Original Message-----
From: platform-swt-dev-admin@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:platform-swt-dev-admin@xxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Lane Sharman
Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 5:57 PM
To: platform-swt-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: SWT History and Design Decisions (WAS: [platform-swt-dev] AWT Toolkit using SWT (was: From Swing to SWT))



Bob Foster wrote:
So where's your GUI builder? (Or Scott's, for that matter? ;-)
http://opendoors.com/conga
Download it for a free 30 trial. Also, be sure to read the link on the page and in the distro, "A Guide to Using Conga with a Team of Graphic Artists and Java Programmers". I believe Conga is completely production grade. Please be sure to drop me a note with any issues offline. Really looking forward to working with you.

 
I'm not seriously challenging that you could make one. I just want to look at the GUI builder that results.
 
The issue isn't whether you can make a GUI builder for SWT. You can make a GUI builder for any library...provided that you don't have to "round trip" (convert source/object code into the representation used internally by the GUI builder).
Conga does not generate/manage code. This is a failing of most GUI builders: they generate reams of code which statically describe at design time the UI. Conga's Builder manages property resource files. Code generation of a UI is basically an evil practice which should be avoided given the dynamic nature of a UI.

 
I know from previous discussion that Scott thinks this is not a requirement. I also know that many commercial GUI builders do allow round-tripping. Enough so that many would consider this a competitive requirement.
Further, in my own apps, I routinely rewrite the property resource files as easily as one would save a data file to preserve user interaction state with the UI. Kinda hard to rewrite and compile a a java source tree in a business app.

I am not trying to brag or anything. In fact, Arthur Van Hoff and his team deserves all the credit because this was his baby some time back and he is about an order of magnitude superior to me as a programmer. It is just that Conga reflects some really outstanding design features and, at this critical juncture in Java's story, we need some help on the desktop to compete with Visual Studio.

Kindest,

Lane

 
Bob
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 1:08 PM
Subject: RE: SWT History and Design Decisions (WAS: [platform-swt-dev] AWT Toolkit using SWT (was: From Swing to SWT))

It’s entirely possible… it’s just that some designers make API, or at least paradigm assumptions about the GUI library they design with, and sometimes those assumptions are incompatible with an alternate GUI library.  I’m not sure this is the case in the mentioned systems, but it’s the only real impediment.  Building a natively SWT-aware builder is not particularly hard compared with another GUI library.

Regards,

Christian.

-----Original Message-----
From: platform-swt-dev-admin@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:platform-swt-dev-admin@xxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jan Venema
Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 10:49 PM
To: platform-swt-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: SWT History and Design Decisions (WAS: [platform-swt-dev] AWT Toolkit using SWT (was: >From Swing to SWT))

Can sombody please explain to me why it is not possible to build a GUI designer in SWT.
I've been following the discussions here, but I haven't realy heard an answer. On the properties pattern thing. Does setData(String key, Object value)  solve your problem? And since SWT is native widgets How does Visual Studio do it?
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-- 
Lane Sharman
http://opendoors.com Conga, GoodTimes and Application Hosting Services
http://opendoors.com/lane.pdf BIO

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