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Re: [orion-dev] Can Orion be less Eclipse
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I have emailed separately instructions on building a WAR file for
Orion.
Saw them - great. I plan to try them out next week.
My steps create the WAR from Eclipse, because it is easy. We do not
have a
WAR file created by the Orion build, maybe we should add it.
+100 that would make it much easier to consume and get contributions
IMO.
This is a likely a loaded question but I will bite. We are an Eclipse
project and we have a Java based server implementation. It is obvious
that
we would use the Eclipse IDE for development.
This "forced use" of the
Eclipse IDE for the Java server development is a barrier to your
usage.
Can you explain a little more why?
Because Orion is supposedly about being a web based and even cloud
enabled
IDE that is not *only* about Eclipse Desktop IDE.
I think its great we got a project that easily imports into Eclipse and
you can
(somewhat) easily go work on it; but I think it would be even more
awesome if the project could equally well import into intellij, netbeans
or
even just be used from pure command line where a lot of the
node/javascript
crowd that would be interested in what Orion brings can participate.
Requiring usage of osgi and plugin.xml editing which is I agree super
well
supported in Eclipse, just seems like a choice that puts up a barrier of
entry that is unnecessary.
I will keep telling whoever I meet that when they look at Orion they
need to look pass the osgi setup and look at what it *actually* can do
and what
it offers - but I can tell you from experience that this just does not
cut it.
Two examples:
We got a handful of people looking into building web-ide prototype and
looking
for what foundation (if any) to build it on - Gorkem and I suggested
Orion for various
reasons - all of them came back stating something similar like: "orion
sound like a good idea, but I really
was put off by the fact I could not just run it and instructions
required me to use eclipse osgi features" ...
That is what Gorkem and I are mainly referring to.
Another situation I was talking with another colleague about doing some
fun with Orion
git support for his project and he got all excited and wanted to go
embed orion immediately.
He took the default orion distro, ran it - no git support and none of
the docs he could find made it work
for him. Then he went and tried same with Brackets, and was up and
running much faster and now he is using
brackets for his prototype instead.
So this is concrete examples of how Orion is currently in our POV setup
with too many barriers of entry for many.
I know there are others that do get through the barrier of entry and get
things done - but my experience is that
it is only those that are truly persistent and already have eclipse IDE
or eclipse project experience.
In todays world - that is very limiting for an open source project.
That got much longer than I wanted it to be - but you asked ;)
Now I hope we can work together and remove some of these barriers so we
don't see these
repeated by other interested parties.
Thanks,
/max
Cheers...
Anthony
From: "Max Rydahl Andersen" <manderse@xxxxxxxxxx>
To: "Orion developer discussions" <orion-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: 2015/04/09 03:53 AM
Subject: Re: [orion-dev] Can Orion be less Eclipse
Sent by: orion-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
On 3 Apr 2015, at 23:46, Gorkem Ercan wrote:
On 2 Apr 2015, at 16:36, John Arthorne wrote:
Hi Gorkem,
The layout of the Orion client is mainly an accident of history,
because
of how it was developed. The main Orion download we produce today is
a
Java EE application, and OSGi is very common in Java EE world. We
use
I think its overstating it to say osgi is *very common* in Java EE
world
;)
Java backend has more than OSGi, it has eclipse extension points etc.
For instance servlet and filter definitions as eclipse extensions on
plugin.xml contributes to barriers for entry to OSGi/JavaEE
developers
Yeah, biggest blocker is that with the current setup only those using
Eclipse IDE
can actually develop and even run this easily.
Jetty for the open source download, but within IBM there are
products
that
ship Orion as a WAR file running on other servers such as Websphere.
I heard rumours about this one :) Is there any documentation on how
to
build Orion as .war? Would it make sense to make .war one of the
build
artifacts for the project?
+1, it would be nice to actually see this in action as opposed to just
keep hearing
about it being possible ;)
You are right that there is absolutely no runtime benefit for the
client
side pieces to be organized into OSGi bundles. It is essentially
just
being used as a development-time and build-time way to separate out
the
client side pieces that are separately consumable. For example if
you
don't want Git you can carve out that piece and use the rest of the
server. I think we would be fine with reorganizing the client side
and use
a different source layout as long as we maintained separation of
those
concerns. I.e., if you were interested in working on reorganizing
the
client code that would be welcome!
I may give a shot at that, something in lines of npm modules perhaps?
I
would not like to disturb the current momentum either so I guess it
is
best to come out with a solid proposal to discuss before anything.
As for the Java server technology, I guess "standard" is a loaded
term.
Java Servlets and OSGi are standards as much as JAX-RS. The question
is
what problem are we solving by moving to a different Java server
side
technology? Is the main concern about barrier to contributors, or is
it
about consumability of the Java server on other Java EE application
servers? Or maybe both?
Not much concern was expressed on deployment. Other than the missing
pieces on node.js backend, which is an interesting option. I can say
that this is mostly about barriers to entry.
+1, the osgi, the forced needed usage of Eclipse IDE for development
and
no real docs on how to build/reconfigure this is what keeps getting
repeated
to us as reasons they have not dived into Orion.
also orion-dev is awfully quiet :)
/max
http://about.me/maxandersen
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/max
http://about.me/maxandersen
