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Re: [modeling-pmc] feedback on GMT web site
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Rich,
I agree but we should wait for general guidelines from the Eclipse management
before entering too precise policy discussions.
Best regards
Jean
On 10/22/07, Richard Gronback <richard.gronback@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> Exceptions always exist, it seems. I suggest we start with approving the
> general policy and vote to approve exceptions as they arise, keeping track
> of all on a wiki page so that we can recall the rationale later when things
> change again ;).
>
> Best,
> Rich
>
>
>
> On 10/22/07 12:02 PM, "Paul Elder" <pelder@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>
>
> Rich:
>
> Your comments suggest that the PMC could make an exception to the policy. I
> could vote for that.
>
> Paul
>
>
> Paul Elder
> IBM Rational Software
> Tel: +1-613-599-3916
> E-mail: pelder@xxxxxxxxxx
>
>
>
>
> Richard Gronback <richard.gronback@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent by: modeling-pmc-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx 2007-10-22 09:52
> AM
>
> Please respond to
> PMC members mailing list <modeling-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>
>
>
> To
>
> PMC members mailing list <modeling-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>
> cc
>
> Bjorn Freeman-Benson <bjorn.freeman-benson@xxxxxxxxxxx>,
> Markus Voelter <voelter@xxxxxxx>
>
> Subject
>
> Re: [modeling-pmc] feedback on GMT web site
>
>
>
>
> Hi Paul,
>
> The intent is to remove all forms of marketing/promotion of contributing
> organizations to the projects, as there is no policy in place at Eclipse to
> govern your last bullet below, or 2 c). There are ongoing discussions,
> however, and hopefully a policy will be provided in the future.
>
> Until then, I suppose it's up to the Modeling PMC to "police" the pages. I
> don't think tutorials hosted elsewhere that are strictly focused on the open
> source technology are bad. If there are references to commercial products,
> it should not be linked from Eclipse.org
>
> Best,
> Rich
>
>
> On 10/22/07 9:08 AM, "Paul Elder" <pelder@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>
> -1
>
> Rich, I feel such a policy is too broad.
>
> An example: the current EMF web site has links to articles about EMF: devX,
> IBM developerWorks, etc.... This policy would force Ed to remove all the
> links to devWorks articles, significantly reducing the discoverability of
> much writing about EMF. I believe this would be a net loss for the
> community.
>
> I'm trying to clarify the intent of this proposed ban. I think it is to
> ensure that projects and components create their communities via
> Eclipse.org, and that project/component leadership is not a platform for
> promoting a specific external organization or product. Thus, I could go far:
>
> 1) Projects/components must host their development and communities using
> the Eclipse infrastructure (CVS/SVN, mailing lists and news groups,
> download.eclipse.org)
> 2) The project/component web site may include links to the sponsoring
> organizations provided that:
> a) the links do not subvert #1
> b) the links are informational in nature (i.e. not blatantly
> commerical).
> c) there is a process for other organizations to contribute similar
> links.
>
> So, I think any and all of the following would be OK:
> * links to developerWorks articles (e.g. if the project is lead by IBM),
> provided that the web site clearly provides a mechanism for others to
> contribute links to other artciles on other sites. (A link to a bugzilla
> template would do nicely).
> * links to products known to include the project/component, provided that
> no one product is promoted above the others, and there is a mechanism for
> any organization to be included on the list.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Paul Elder
> IBM Rational Software
> Tel: +1-613-599-3916
> E-mail: pelder@xxxxxxxxxx
>
>
>
>
> "Kenn Hussey" <Kenn.Hussey@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent by: modeling-pmc-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx 2007-10-19 04:03
> PM
> Please respond to
> PMC members mailing list <modeling-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> To
> "PMC members mailing list" <modeling-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> cc
> Bjorn Freeman-Benson <bjorn.freeman-benson@xxxxxxxxxxx>,
> Markus Voelter <voelter@xxxxxxx>,
> modeling-pmc-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject
> RE: [modeling-pmc] feedback on GMT web site
>
>
>
>
>
> +1.
>
> Kenn Hussey
> Program Manager, EA/Studio
>
> [Embarcadero Technologies Logo]
>
> Embarcadero Technologies, Inc. | www.embarcadero.com
> 110 Spadina Avenue, Suite 400 | Toronto, ON M5V 2K4
> Kenn.Hussey@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Mobile: 613-301-9105
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: modeling-pmc-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:modeling-pmc-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx]
> <mailto:modeling-pmc-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx]> On Behalf Of Ed
> Merks
>
> Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 4:00 PM
> To: PMC members mailing list
> Cc: Bjorn Freeman-Benson; Markus Voelter; PMC members mailing list;
> modeling-pmc-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: [modeling-pmc] feedback on GMT web site
>
> Rich,
>
> I know folks might be upset by this, I think off site links aren't
> appropriate at Eclipse.
>
> +1
>
>
> Ed Merks/Toronto/IBM@IBMCA
> mailto: merks@xxxxxxxxxx
> 905-413-3265 (t/l 969)
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Richard Gronback
>
> <richard.gronback
>
> @borland.com>
> To
> Sent by: PMC members mailing list
> modeling-pmc-boun <modeling-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx>, Bernd
> ces@xxxxxxxxxxx Kolb <b.kolb@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>
> cc
> Bjorn Freeman-Benson
>
> 10/19/2007 03:48
> <bjorn.freeman-benson@xxxxxxxxxxx>,
> PM Markus Voelter <voelter@xxxxxxx>
>
> Subject
> Re: [modeling-pmc]
> feedback on GMT
> Please respond to web site
> PMC members
>
> mailing list
>
> <modeling-pmc@ecl
>
> ipse.org>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I guess Bernd was left off the list of Ed's message, so including in this
> thread.
> ------------------
>
> In the absence of a formally defined policy at the Foundation level on this
> matter, I propose a PMC vote:
>
> Do we forbid all links from the Modeling website at Eclipse.org to
> contributing organizations (commercial, academic, or otherwise) until such
> time there is a posted Foundation-sanctioned policy?
>
> My vote:
> +1
>
> Thanks,
> Rich
>
>
> On 10/19/07 3:42 PM, "Ed Merks" <merks@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> > Bernd,
> >
> > By the same token, EMF started at com.ibm.etools.emf but you won't find
> > signs of that. The E in EMF even stood for e-tools. But when we moved
> it
> > to Eclipse, we stripped all that is IBM from it, except for the
> copyrights.
> > I think that's very important. Even if oAW is not a big corporate brand,
> > it at least gives the appearance of commercial interests being involved.
> > After all, folks do consulting under this brand. And of course we
> greatly
> > value your contributions. After all, GMF is making good use of Xpand!
> > It's the individuals making the contributions that we'd like to
> recognize;
> > their associated entities should play a secondary role at best. I'd like
> > to see Eclipse provide some type of "list of credits under help" where
> > contributors, committers, and their sponsoring affiliations could be
> > advertised. I think that would be the appropriate place for non-Eclipse
> > bands to appear. I think the oAW brand is only appropriate as an
> external
> > distro, like MyEclipse...
> >
> >
> > Ed Merks/Toronto/IBM@IBMCA
> > mailto: merks@xxxxxxxxxx
> > 905-413-3265 (t/l 969)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Bernd Kolb"
> > <b.kolb@kolbware.
> > de>
> To
> > Sent by: "'Richard Gronback'"
> > modeling-pmc-boun <richard.gronback@xxxxxxxxxxx>,
> > ces@xxxxxxxxxxx "'Ian Skerrett'"
> >
> <ian.skerrett@xxxxxxxxxxx>,
> >
> "'ian.skerrett@xxxxxxxxxxx,
> > 10/19/2007 02:27 PMC members mailing list'"
> > PM <modeling-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx>,
> > "'Markus Voelter'"
> > <voelter@xxxxxxx>
> > Please respond to
> cc
> > PMC members
> > mailing list
> Subject
> > <modeling-pmc@ecl RE: [modeling-pmc] feedback on GMT
> > ipse.org> web site
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Ian, Rich, Ed, Jean
> >
> > openArchitectureWare has been a project which has started independent of
> > Eclipse and has been integrated into GMT at some point. Hence it does
> have
> > its own brand and a quite large community including a webpage with a
> forum
> > on it. Just to clarify, oAW is driven by individuals, not by a company.
> > Most
> > of the developers are not paid for what they do to oAW, at least not
> > directly. It is one of the purposes of GMT to provide a way of
> integrating
> > promising new or existing projects into the Eclipse universe.
> >
> > However, we are aware that for openArchitectureWare this is a temporary
> > state: at the moment we are in the process of splitting oAW into several
> > pieces that will end up in various Eclipse Modeling project, dropping the
> > openArchitectureWare name in the process.
> >
> > For example, the process has been finished for the Modeling Workflow
> Engine
> > (MWE) which can now be found in EMFT and is being removed from
> > openArchitectureWare. If you have a look at the code and the
> documentation
> > you?ll find no references to openArchitectureWare anymore. The same will
> be
> > true for our Xpand contribution to the model-to-text component; it is
> > currently in the process of being migrated to M2T.
> >
> > After we finished this process, openArchitectureWare will be much less
> > important. Our goal is to keep the "brand" oAW as a kind of
> "distribution"
> > of well-cooperating Eclipse modeling components, combined with a set of
> > more
> > experimental modeling related tools. We hope to finish this process
> within
> > the next few weeks.
> >
> > I'd just want to make one remark w/r/t the branding of components. I
> think
> > the modeling project is different from the rest of the Eclipse projects.
> > Here we have e.g. a project called Model-to-model. It contains several
> > languages (components), basically doing the same. It is ok to have these
> > different languages with the same functionality. However, it is important
> > to
> > show the user when he should/could use which component. Thus, in EMP
> > components are much more independent from each other than in all other
> > Eclipse projects. I think it is good here to have a little branding
> (within
> > a limited range, I agree) which gives these components an identity. And
> > helps the users to distinguish them
> >
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Bernd
> >
> >
> >
> > Mit freundlichen Grüßen
> > Bernd Kolb
> > (b.kolb@xxxxxxxxxxx)
> > http://www.kolbware.de <http://www.kolbware.de/>
> >
> > --
> > KolbWare
> > (Beratung & Coaching)
> > Bernd Kolb
> > Franz-Marc Str. 35
> > 89520 Heidenheim
> >
> > Mobil: 0163/7321605
> >
> > From: Richard Gronback
> [mailto:richard.gronback@xxxxxxxxxxx]
> <mailto:richard.gronback@xxxxxxxxxxx]>
> > Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 7:40 PM
> > To: Ian Skerrett; ian.skerrett@xxxxxxxxxxx, PMC members mailing list;
> Bernd
> > Kolb; Markus Voelter
> > Subject: Re: [modeling-pmc] feedback on GMT web site
> >
> > Thanks for the ATL observation, Ian. I was under the impression that our
> > ?identity crisis? components were all within GMT. ATL has graduated from
> > GMT recently, as have several components of oAW, but I see they still
> have
> > a
> > reference to the ATLAS Group on their page. This should be removed,
> along
> > with other references such as the Acknowledgement section at the bottom
> of
> > this page:
> http://www.eclipse.org/m2m/atl/usecases/webapp.modeling/
> <http://www.eclipse.org/m2m/atl/usecases/webapp.modeling/>
> Of
> > course, the logos are not what you mean, right? We have lots of logos in
> > use within Modeling.
> >
> > Until such time there is a policy for advertising external entities
> > (commercial, academic, or otherwise) on the Eclipse.org website, I agree
> > that all references should be removed. As Ed mentioned, you won?t find
> > links to IBM or Borland on the EMF or GMF sites.
> >
> > Regarding oAW, we have had discussions with them and decided the most
> > painless approach was to require they strip their oAW identity when
> > graduating to other modeling projects, also as Ed mentioned. The Xpand
> and
> > Workflow components are undergoing a namespace refactoring as they
> migrate,
> > and we?ll make sure there are no oAW on the M2T and EMFT websites. We?ll
> > certainly try to speed up this process.
> >
> > Another timely topic is the recent announcement of the oAW 4.2 release (
> > http://www.eclipse.org/gmt/oaw/news/index.php
> <http://www.eclipse.org/gmt/oaw/news/index.php> and
> > http://www.eclipse.org/gmt/oaw/download/).
> <http://www.eclipse.org/gmt/oaw/download/).> I don?t recall
> a release
> review
> > taking place for this component (or ever for GMT), and I see they are
> still
> > providing links to download from www.openarchitectureware.org on their
> > download page. Hopefully, we can correct this ASAP.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Rich
> >
> >
> > On 10/19/07 1:12 PM, "Ian Skerrett" <ian.skerrett@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > What I would suggest is that the components of GMT should not have a
> > logo/graphic and have a descriptive name not a nickname. I think this
> > would
> > go a long way to improving the situation. Btw, this goes for all the
> > modeling sub-projects, for instance
> > http://www.eclipse.org/m2m/atl/
> <http://www.eclipse.org/m2m/atl/> Having all these
> different logos in my
> > opinion conveys a perception that
> > there is no strategy or integration between the components or the
> > projects.
> > My 2 cents?.
> > Ian
> > ________________________________________
> > From: jbezivin@xxxxxxxxx [mailto:jbezivin@xxxxxxxxx]
> <mailto:jbezivin@xxxxxxxxx]> On Behalf Of Jean
>
> > Bezivin
> > Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 12:48 PM
> > To: PMC members mailing list
> > Cc: ian.skerrett@xxxxxxxxxxx; Bjorn Freeman-Benson;
> > modeling-pmc-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: Re: [modeling-pmc] feedback on GMT web site
> >
> >
> > I agree with you.
> >
> >
> >
> > I also agree that we have to improve much the organization of GMT.
> >
> >
> >
> > For oAW matters, I will transmit these remarks to Markus Voelter.
> >
> > I will discuss with him directly next week at OOPSLA because
> >
> > he will be there.
> >
> >
> >
> > Bjorn, will you be at OOPSLA and if yes would it be possible
> >
> > to have a short meeting with Markus to stress the importance
> >
> > of what has been said?
> >
> >
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> >
> >
> > Jean
> >
> > On 10/19/07, Ed Merks <merks@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > Ian,
> >
> > I'll draw Nick's attention to that link gone astray...
> >
> > I agree with you. As the various parts of the oAW technology are
> > incorporated into the other projects, like Xpand into M2T and MWE into
> > EMFT, I'll ask folks to avoid any non-Eclipse branding on the site. You
> > won't find IBM/Rational branding nor Borland branding at Eclipse, so we
> > ought not be to seeing anything that isn't part of Eclipse's branding.
> > We'll queue up this topic for discussion at the next PMC meeting.
> >
> > It would be good to improve GMT's image as well. What are your thoughts
> on
> >
> > this Jean?
> >
> >
> > Ed Merks/Toronto/IBM@IBMCA
> > mailto: merks@xxxxxxxxxx
> > 905-413-3265 (t/l 969) "Ian Skerrett" <
> > ian.skerrett@ecl ipse.org <http://ipse.org> <http://ipse.org/>
> >> To
> Sent
> > by: <modeling-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx <
> > mailto:modeling-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> <mailto:modeling-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx>>
> >> modeling-pmc-boun
> >> cc
> ces@xxxxxxxxxxx
> >> "'Bjorn
> > Freeman-Benson'" <
> >
> bjorn.freeman-benson@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>
>
> > Subject 10/19/2007
> > 12:06 [modeling-pmc] feedback on GMT
> > web PM site Please respond
> > to ian.skerrett@ecli pse.org <http://pse.org>
> <http://pse.org/> ;
> > Please respond to PMC
> > members mailing
> > list <modeling-pmc@ecl ipse.org <
> http://ipse.org> <http://ipse.org>/>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Modeling PMC,
> >
> > Today, I was looking at the open Achitectureware project and in general
> the
> >
> > GMT project. I don?t usually provide feedback on project specific
> > branding and marketing but I thought compelled to do so in this case.
> >
> > IMHO, from a branding and marketing perspective, the open
> Architectureware
> > project looks out of place in the context of the Eclipse community. They
> > essentially look like they have parachuted in their existing project into
> > an Eclipse project web page. They actually also seem to have another
> > project web site http://www.openarchitectureware.org/.
> <http://www.openarchitectureware.org/> I find it all
> very
> > confusing and probably detrimental to the Eclipse brand.
> >
> > If I look at the GMT site, it seems like the open architectureware
> scenario
> >
> > plays out again and again. I see lots of project logos and cool names
> > that seem to have very little to do with Eclipse? The perception I am
> left
> > with is that GMT is hovering up existing modeling projects but not really
> > integrating them into Eclipse? I think what you are doing is creating an
> > incubator for new modeling projects, which is great, but in my opinion
> what
> > you are communicating is something very different and will hurt the
> > perception of the overall modeling project.
> >
> > As I said, I usually don?t provide this type of feedback but in this case
> I
> > just had to say something. I?d be happy to discuss further and if you
> > want.
> >
> > Btw, when I went to try to find the PMC mailing list, the link on this
> page
> > http://www.eclipse.org/modeling/
> <http://www.eclipse.org/modeling/> points to
> > https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/emft-dev
> >
> >
> > Ian
> >
> > Ian Skerrett
> > Director of Marketing
> > Eclipse Foundation
> > 613-224-9461 ext. 227
> > blog: ianskerrett.wordpress.com
> <http://ianskerrett.wordpress.com>
> <http://ianskerrett.wordpress.com/>
>
> > _______________________________________________
> > modeling-pmc mailing list
> > modeling-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/modeling-pmc
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > modeling-pmc mailing list
> > modeling-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/modeling-pmc
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Richard C. Gronback
> > Borland Software Corporation
> > richard.gronback@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > +1 860 227 9215
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > modeling-pmc mailing list
> > modeling-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/modeling-pmc
> >
> >
>
> --
> Richard C. Gronback
> Borland Software Corporation
> richard.gronback@xxxxxxxxxxx
> +1 860 227 9215
>
> _______________________________________________
> modeling-pmc mailing list
> modeling-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx
> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/modeling-pmc
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> modeling-pmc mailing list
> modeling-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx
> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/modeling-pmc
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> ________________________________
> _______________________________________________
> modeling-pmc mailing list
> modeling-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx
> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/modeling-pmc
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Richard C. Gronback
> Borland Software Corporation
> richard.gronback@xxxxxxxxxxx
> +1 860 227 9215
>
> _______________________________________________
> modeling-pmc mailing list
> modeling-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx
> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/modeling-pmc
>
>
--
__________________________________
Jean Bézivin - ATLAS Group (INRIA & LINA) - University of Nantes - 2,
rue de la Houssinière
44322 Nantes cedex 3 - France
tel. +33 2 51 12 58 13 - fax. +33 2 51 12 58 12 - cell.+33 6 14 32 22 36
- e.mail: Jean.Bezivin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
http://www.sciences.univ-nantes.fr/lina/atl/ - Skype: jbezivin
---------------------------------------
