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RE: [modeling-pmc] feedback on GMT web site
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Paul,
I agree that we need to be specific about how we define the policy. For
example, it seems reasonable that folks in their contributor biography
might well want to point off at their funding organization. It seems
obviously reasonable to point off at external documentation. We even have
EMF corner where we encourage folks to include pointers off at other
things, but the issue of advertising is more tricky and is the subject of
on-going discussions at the foundation. So in terms of the specifics,
external pointers on the project home page that can be construed as
advertisement or as promotion of external organizations seem kind of
inappropriate. But even here, there are gray zones. After all, a pointer
at the W3C's XML Schema specification or at the OMG's UML/OCL specification
seems reasonable. I'm not sure how we can define an air-tight policy.
Help from the foundation for an Eclipse-wide policy would be appreciated
(at the risk of cries about so many rules from the masses)...
Ed Merks/Toronto/IBM@IBMCA
mailto: merks@xxxxxxxxxx
905-413-3265 (t/l 969)
Paul
Elder/Ottawa/IBM@
IBMCA To
Sent by: PMC members mailing list
modeling-pmc-boun <modeling-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx>
ces@xxxxxxxxxxx cc
Bjorn Freeman-Benson
<bjorn.freeman-benson@xxxxxxxxxxx>,
10/22/2007 09:08 Markus Voelter <voelter@xxxxxxx>
AM Subject
RE: [modeling-pmc] feedback on GMT
web site
Please respond to
PMC members
mailing list
<modeling-pmc@ecl
ipse.org>
-1
Rich, I feel such a policy is too broad.
An example: the current EMF web site has links to articles about EMF: devX,
IBM developerWorks, etc.... This policy would force Ed to remove all the
links to devWorks articles, significantly reducing the discoverability of
much writing about EMF. I believe this would be a net loss for the
community.
I'm trying to clarify the intent of this proposed ban. I think it is to
ensure that projects and components create their communities via
Eclipse.org, and that project/component leadership is not a platform for
promoting a specific external organization or product. Thus, I could go
far:
1) Projects/components must host their development and communities using
the Eclipse infrastructure (CVS/SVN, mailing lists and news groups,
download.eclipse.org)
2) The project/component web site may include links to the sponsoring
organizations provided that:
a) the links do not subvert #1
b) the links are informational in nature (i.e. not blatantly
commerical).
c) there is a process for other organizations to contribute similar
links.
So, I think any and all of the following would be OK:
* links to developerWorks articles (e.g. if the project is lead by IBM),
provided that the web site clearly provides a mechanism for others to
contribute links to other artciles on other sites. (A link to a bugzilla
template would do nicely).
* links to products known to include the project/component, provided that
no one product is promoted above the others, and there is a mechanism for
any organization to be included on the list.
Thoughts?
Paul Elder
IBM Rational Software
Tel: +1-613-599-3916
E-mail: pelder@xxxxxxxxxx
"Kenn Hussey"
<Kenn.Hussey@EMBARCADER
O.COM> To
Sent by: "PMC members mailing list"
modeling-pmc-bounces@ec <modeling-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx>
lipse.org cc
Bjorn Freeman-Benson
<bjorn.freeman-benson@xxxxxxxxxxx>, Markus
2007-10-19 04:03 PM Voelter <voelter@xxxxxxx>,
modeling-pmc-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
Subject
Please respond to RE: [modeling-pmc] feedback on GMT web site
PMC members mailing
list
<modeling-pmc@eclipse.
org>
+1.
Kenn Hussey
Program Manager, EA/Studio
[Embarcadero Technologies Logo]
Embarcadero Technologies, Inc. | www.embarcadero.com
110 Spadina Avenue, Suite 400 | Toronto, ON M5V 2K4
Kenn.Hussey@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Mobile: 613-301-9105
-----Original Message-----
From: modeling-pmc-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:modeling-pmc-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ed Merks
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 4:00 PM
To: PMC members mailing list
Cc: Bjorn Freeman-Benson; Markus Voelter; PMC members mailing list;
modeling-pmc-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [modeling-pmc] feedback on GMT web site
Rich,
I know folks might be upset by this, I think off site links aren't
appropriate at Eclipse.
+1
Ed Merks/Toronto/IBM@IBMCA
mailto: merks@xxxxxxxxxx
905-413-3265 (t/l 969)
Richard Gronback
<richard.gronback
@borland.com> To
Sent by: PMC members mailing list
modeling-pmc-boun <modeling-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx>, Bernd
ces@xxxxxxxxxxx Kolb <b.kolb@xxxxxxxxxxx>
cc
Bjorn Freeman-Benson
10/19/2007 03:48 <bjorn.freeman-benson@xxxxxxxxxxx>,
PM Markus Voelter <voelter@xxxxxxx>
Subject
Re: [modeling-pmc] feedback on GMT
Please respond to web site
PMC members
mailing list
<modeling-pmc@ecl
ipse.org>
I guess Bernd was left off the list of Ed's message, so including in this
thread.
------------------
In the absence of a formally defined policy at the Foundation level on this
matter, I propose a PMC vote:
Do we forbid all links from the Modeling website at Eclipse.org to
contributing organizations (commercial, academic, or otherwise) until such
time there is a posted Foundation-sanctioned policy?
My vote:
+1
Thanks,
Rich
On 10/19/07 3:42 PM, "Ed Merks" <merks@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Bernd,
>
> By the same token, EMF started at com.ibm.etools.emf but you won't find
> signs of that. The E in EMF even stood for e-tools. But when we moved
it
> to Eclipse, we stripped all that is IBM from it, except for the
copyrights.
> I think that's very important. Even if oAW is not a big corporate brand,
> it at least gives the appearance of commercial interests being involved.
> After all, folks do consulting under this brand. And of course we
greatly
> value your contributions. After all, GMF is making good use of Xpand!
> It's the individuals making the contributions that we'd like to
recognize;
> their associated entities should play a secondary role at best. I'd like
> to see Eclipse provide some type of "list of credits under help" where
> contributors, committers, and their sponsoring affiliations could be
> advertised. I think that would be the appropriate place for non-Eclipse
> bands to appear. I think the oAW brand is only appropriate as an
external
> distro, like MyEclipse...
>
>
> Ed Merks/Toronto/IBM@IBMCA
> mailto: merks@xxxxxxxxxx
> 905-413-3265 (t/l 969)
>
>
>
>
>
> "Bernd Kolb"
> <b.kolb@kolbware.
> de>
To
> Sent by: "'Richard Gronback'"
> modeling-pmc-boun <richard.gronback@xxxxxxxxxxx>,
> ces@xxxxxxxxxxx "'Ian Skerrett'"
> <ian.skerrett@xxxxxxxxxxx>,
> "'ian.skerrett@xxxxxxxxxxx,
> 10/19/2007 02:27 PMC members mailing list'"
> PM <modeling-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx>,
> "'Markus Voelter'"
> <voelter@xxxxxxx>
> Please respond to
cc
> PMC members
> mailing list
Subject
> <modeling-pmc@ecl RE: [modeling-pmc] feedback on GMT
> ipse.org> web site
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Ian, Rich, Ed, Jean
>
> openArchitectureWare has been a project which has started independent of
> Eclipse and has been integrated into GMT at some point. Hence it does
have
> its own brand and a quite large community including a webpage with a
forum
> on it. Just to clarify, oAW is driven by individuals, not by a company.
> Most
> of the developers are not paid for what they do to oAW, at least not
> directly. It is one of the purposes of GMT to provide a way of
integrating
> promising new or existing projects into the Eclipse universe.
>
> However, we are aware that for openArchitectureWare this is a temporary
> state: at the moment we are in the process of splitting oAW into several
> pieces that will end up in various Eclipse Modeling project, dropping the
> openArchitectureWare name in the process.
>
> For example, the process has been finished for the Modeling Workflow
Engine
> (MWE) which can now be found in EMFT and is being removed from
> openArchitectureWare. If you have a look at the code and the
documentation
> you?ll find no references to openArchitectureWare anymore. The same will
be
> true for our Xpand contribution to the model-to-text component; it is
> currently in the process of being migrated to M2T.
>
> After we finished this process, openArchitectureWare will be much less
> important. Our goal is to keep the "brand" oAW as a kind of
"distribution"
> of well-cooperating Eclipse modeling components, combined with a set of
> more
> experimental modeling related tools. We hope to finish this process
within
> the next few weeks.
>
> I'd just want to make one remark w/r/t the branding of components. I
think
> the modeling project is different from the rest of the Eclipse projects.
> Here we have e.g. a project called Model-to-model. It contains several
> languages (components), basically doing the same. It is ok to have these
> different languages with the same functionality. However, it is important
> to
> show the user when he should/could use which component. Thus, in EMP
> components are much more independent from each other than in all other
> Eclipse projects. I think it is good here to have a little branding
(within
> a limited range, I agree) which gives these components an identity. And
> helps the users to distinguish them
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Bernd
>
>
>
> Mit freundlichen Grüßen
> Bernd Kolb
> (b.kolb@xxxxxxxxxxx)
> http://www.kolbware.de
>
> --
> KolbWare
> (Beratung & Coaching)
> Bernd Kolb
> Franz-Marc Str. 35
> 89520 Heidenheim
>
> Mobil: 0163/7321605
>
> From: Richard Gronback [mailto:richard.gronback@xxxxxxxxxxx]
> Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 7:40 PM
> To: Ian Skerrett; ian.skerrett@xxxxxxxxxxx, PMC members mailing list;
Bernd
> Kolb; Markus Voelter
> Subject: Re: [modeling-pmc] feedback on GMT web site
>
> Thanks for the ATL observation, Ian. I was under the impression that our
> ?identity crisis? components were all within GMT. ATL has graduated from
> GMT recently, as have several components of oAW, but I see they still
have
> a
> reference to the ATLAS Group on their page. This should be removed,
along
> with other references such as the Acknowledgement section at the bottom
of
> this page: http://www.eclipse.org/m2m/atl/usecases/webapp.modeling/ Of
> course, the logos are not what you mean, right? We have lots of logos in
> use within Modeling.
>
> Until such time there is a policy for advertising external entities
> (commercial, academic, or otherwise) on the Eclipse.org website, I agree
> that all references should be removed. As Ed mentioned, you won?t find
> links to IBM or Borland on the EMF or GMF sites.
>
> Regarding oAW, we have had discussions with them and decided the most
> painless approach was to require they strip their oAW identity when
> graduating to other modeling projects, also as Ed mentioned. The Xpand
and
> Workflow components are undergoing a namespace refactoring as they
migrate,
> and we?ll make sure there are no oAW on the M2T and EMFT websites. We?ll
> certainly try to speed up this process.
>
> Another timely topic is the recent announcement of the oAW 4.2 release (
> http://www.eclipse.org/gmt/oaw/news/index.php and
> http://www.eclipse.org/gmt/oaw/download/). I don?t recall a release
review
> taking place for this component (or ever for GMT), and I see they are
still
> providing links to download from www.openarchitectureware.org on their
> download page. Hopefully, we can correct this ASAP.
>
> Thanks,
> Rich
>
>
> On 10/19/07 1:12 PM, "Ian Skerrett" <ian.skerrett@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> What I would suggest is that the components of GMT should not have a
> logo/graphic and have a descriptive name not a nickname. I think this
> would
> go a long way to improving the situation. Btw, this goes for all the
> modeling sub-projects, for instance
> http://www.eclipse.org/m2m/atl/ Having all these different logos in my
> opinion conveys a perception that
> there is no strategy or integration between the components or the
> projects.
> My 2 cents?.
> Ian
> ________________________________________
> From: jbezivin@xxxxxxxxx [mailto:jbezivin@xxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jean
> Bezivin
> Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 12:48 PM
> To: PMC members mailing list
> Cc: ian.skerrett@xxxxxxxxxxx; Bjorn Freeman-Benson;
> modeling-pmc-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: [modeling-pmc] feedback on GMT web site
>
>
> I agree with you.
>
>
>
> I also agree that we have to improve much the organization of GMT.
>
>
>
> For oAW matters, I will transmit these remarks to Markus Voelter.
>
> I will discuss with him directly next week at OOPSLA because
>
> he will be there.
>
>
>
> Bjorn, will you be at OOPSLA and if yes would it be possible
>
> to have a short meeting with Markus to stress the importance
>
> of what has been said?
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
>
>
> Jean
>
> On 10/19/07, Ed Merks <merks@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Ian,
>
> I'll draw Nick's attention to that link gone astray...
>
> I agree with you. As the various parts of the oAW technology are
> incorporated into the other projects, like Xpand into M2T and MWE into
> EMFT, I'll ask folks to avoid any non-Eclipse branding on the site. You
> won't find IBM/Rational branding nor Borland branding at Eclipse, so we
> ought not be to seeing anything that isn't part of Eclipse's branding.
> We'll queue up this topic for discussion at the next PMC meeting.
>
> It would be good to improve GMT's image as well. What are your thoughts
on
>
> this Jean?
>
>
> Ed Merks/Toronto/IBM@IBMCA
> mailto: merks@xxxxxxxxxx
> 905-413-3265 (t/l 969) "Ian Skerrett" <
> ian.skerrett@ecl ipse.org <http://ipse.org>
>> To Sent
> by: <modeling-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx <
> mailto:modeling-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>> modeling-pmc-boun
>> cc ces@xxxxxxxxxxx
>> "'Bjorn
> Freeman-Benson'" <
>
bjorn.freeman-benson@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject 10/19/2007
> 12:06 [modeling-pmc] feedback on GMT
> web PM site Please respond
> to ian.skerrett@ecli pse.org <http://pse.org> ;
> Please respond to PMC
> members mailing
> list <modeling-pmc@ecl ipse.org <
http://ipse.org>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Modeling PMC,
>
> Today, I was looking at the open Achitectureware project and in general
the
>
> GMT project. I don?t usually provide feedback on project specific
> branding and marketing but I thought compelled to do so in this case.
>
> IMHO, from a branding and marketing perspective, the open
Architectureware
> project looks out of place in the context of the Eclipse community. They
> essentially look like they have parachuted in their existing project into
> an Eclipse project web page. They actually also seem to have another
> project web site http://www.openarchitectureware.org/. I find it all
very
> confusing and probably detrimental to the Eclipse brand.
>
> If I look at the GMT site, it seems like the open architectureware
scenario
>
> plays out again and again. I see lots of project logos and cool names
> that seem to have very little to do with Eclipse? The perception I am
left
> with is that GMT is hovering up existing modeling projects but not really
> integrating them into Eclipse? I think what you are doing is creating an
> incubator for new modeling projects, which is great, but in my opinion
what
> you are communicating is something very different and will hurt the
> perception of the overall modeling project.
>
> As I said, I usually don?t provide this type of feedback but in this case
I
> just had to say something. I?d be happy to discuss further and if you
> want.
>
> Btw, when I went to try to find the PMC mailing list, the link on this
page
> http://www.eclipse.org/modeling/ points to
> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/emft-dev
>
>
> Ian
>
> Ian Skerrett
> Director of Marketing
> Eclipse Foundation
> 613-224-9461 ext. 227
> blog: ianskerrett.wordpress.com <http://ianskerrett.wordpress.com>
> _______________________________________________
> modeling-pmc mailing list
> modeling-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx
> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/modeling-pmc
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> modeling-pmc mailing list
> modeling-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx
> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/modeling-pmc
>
>
>
> --
> Richard C. Gronback
> Borland Software Corporation
> richard.gronback@xxxxxxxxxxx
> +1 860 227 9215
>
> _______________________________________________
> modeling-pmc mailing list
> modeling-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx
> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/modeling-pmc
>
>
--
Richard C. Gronback
Borland Software Corporation
richard.gronback@xxxxxxxxxxx
+1 860 227 9215
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