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Re: [modeling-pmc] feedback on GMT web site

I guess Bernd was left off the list of Ed's message, so including in this
thread.
------------------

In the absence of a formally defined policy at the Foundation level on this
matter, I propose a PMC vote:

Do we forbid all links from the Modeling website at Eclipse.org to
contributing organizations (commercial, academic, or otherwise) until such
time there is a posted Foundation-sanctioned policy?

My vote:
+1

Thanks,
Rich


On 10/19/07 3:42 PM, "Ed Merks" <merks@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> Bernd,
> 
> By the same token, EMF started at com.ibm.etools.emf but you won't find
> signs of that.   The E in EMF even stood for e-tools.  But when we moved it
> to Eclipse, we stripped all that is IBM from it, except for the copyrights.
> I think that's very important.  Even if oAW is not a big corporate brand,
> it at least gives the appearance of commercial interests being involved.
> After all, folks do consulting under this brand.  And of course we greatly
> value your contributions.  After all, GMF is making good use of Xpand!
> It's the individuals making the contributions that we'd like to recognize;
> their associated entities should play a secondary role at best.  I'd like
> to see Eclipse provide some type of "list of credits under help" where
> contributors, committers, and their sponsoring affiliations could be
> advertised.  I think that would be the appropriate place for non-Eclipse
> bands to appear.   I think the oAW brand is only appropriate as an external
> distro, like MyEclipse...
> 
> 
> Ed Merks/Toronto/IBM@IBMCA
> mailto: merks@xxxxxxxxxx
> 905-413-3265  (t/l 969)
> 
> 
> 
> 
>                  
>              "Bernd Kolb"
>              <b.kolb@kolbware.
>              de>                                                        To
>              Sent by:                  "'Richard Gronback'"
>              modeling-pmc-boun         <richard.gronback@xxxxxxxxxxx>,
>              ces@xxxxxxxxxxx           "'Ian Skerrett'"
>                                        <ian.skerrett@xxxxxxxxxxx>,
>                                        "'ian.skerrett@xxxxxxxxxxx,
>              10/19/2007 02:27          PMC members mailing list'"
>              PM                        <modeling-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx>,
>                                        "'Markus Voelter'"
>                                        <voelter@xxxxxxx>
>              Please respond to                                          cc
>                 PMC members
>                mailing list                                        Subject
>              <modeling-pmc@ecl         RE: [modeling-pmc] feedback on GMT
>                  ipse.org>             web site
>                  
>                  
>                  
>                  
>                  
>                  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ian, Rich, Ed, Jean
> 
> openArchitectureWare has been a project which has started independent of
> Eclipse and has been integrated into GMT at some point. Hence it does have
> its own brand and a quite large community including a webpage with a forum
> on it. Just to clarify, oAW is driven by individuals, not by a company.
> Most
> of the developers are not paid for what they do to oAW, at least not
> directly. It is one of the purposes of GMT to provide a way of integrating
> promising new or existing projects into the Eclipse universe.
> 
> However, we are aware that for openArchitectureWare this is a temporary
> state: at the moment we are in the process of splitting oAW into several
> pieces that will end up in various Eclipse Modeling project, dropping the
> openArchitectureWare name in the process.
> 
> For example, the process has been finished for the Modeling Workflow Engine
> (MWE) which can now be found in EMFT and is being removed from
> openArchitectureWare. If you have a look at the code and the documentation
> you?ll find no references to openArchitectureWare anymore. The same will be
> true for our Xpand contribution to the model-to-text component; it is
> currently in the process of being migrated to M2T.
> 
> After we finished this process, openArchitectureWare will be much less
> important. Our goal is to keep the "brand" oAW as a kind of "distribution"
> of well-cooperating Eclipse modeling components, combined with a set of
> more
> experimental modeling related tools. We hope to finish this process within
> the next few weeks.
> 
> I'd just want to make one remark w/r/t the branding of components. I think
> the modeling project is different from the rest of the Eclipse projects.
> Here we have e.g. a project called Model-to-model. It contains several
> languages (components), basically doing the same. It is ok to have these
> different languages with the same functionality. However, it is important
> to
> show the user when he should/could use which component. Thus, in EMP
> components are much more independent from each other than in all other
> Eclipse projects. I think it is good here to have a little branding (within
> a limited range, I agree) which gives these components an identity. And
> helps the users to distinguish them
> 
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Bernd
> 
> 
> 
> Mit freundlichen Grüßen
> Bernd Kolb
> (b.kolb@xxxxxxxxxxx)
> http://www.kolbware.de
> 
> --
> KolbWare
> (Beratung & Coaching)
> Bernd Kolb
> Franz-Marc Str. 35
> 89520 Heidenheim
> 
> Mobil: 0163/7321605
> 
> From: Richard Gronback [mailto:richard.gronback@xxxxxxxxxxx]
> Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 7:40 PM
> To: Ian Skerrett; ian.skerrett@xxxxxxxxxxx, PMC members mailing list; Bernd
> Kolb; Markus Voelter
> Subject: Re: [modeling-pmc] feedback on GMT web site
> 
> Thanks for the ATL observation, Ian.  I was under the impression that our
> ?identity crisis? components were all within GMT.  ATL has graduated from
> GMT recently, as have several components of oAW, but I see they still have
> a
> reference to the ATLAS Group on their page.  This should be removed, along
> with other references such as the Acknowledgement section at the bottom of
> this page: http://www.eclipse.org/m2m/atl/usecases/webapp.modeling/  Of
> course, the logos are not what you mean, right?  We have lots of logos in
> use within Modeling.
> 
> Until such time there is a policy for advertising external entities
> (commercial, academic, or otherwise) on the Eclipse.org website, I agree
> that all references should be removed.  As Ed mentioned, you won?t find
> links to IBM or Borland on the EMF or GMF sites.
> 
> Regarding oAW, we have had discussions with them and decided the most
> painless approach was to require they strip their oAW identity when
> graduating to other modeling projects, also as Ed mentioned. The Xpand and
> Workflow components are undergoing a namespace refactoring as they migrate,
> and we?ll make sure there are no oAW on the M2T and EMFT websites.  We?ll
> certainly try to speed up this process.
> 
> Another timely topic is the recent announcement of the oAW 4.2 release (
> http://www.eclipse.org/gmt/oaw/news/index.php  and
> http://www.eclipse.org/gmt/oaw/download/).  I don?t recall a release review
> taking place for this component (or ever for GMT), and I see they are still
> providing links to download from www.openarchitectureware.org on their
> download page.  Hopefully, we can correct this ASAP.
> 
> Thanks,
> Rich
> 
> 
> On 10/19/07 1:12 PM, "Ian Skerrett" <ian.skerrett@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> What I would suggest is that the components of GMT should not have a
> logo/graphic and have a descriptive name not a nickname.  I think this
> would
> go a long way to improving the situation.   Btw, this goes for all the
> modeling sub-projects, for instance
> http://www.eclipse.org/m2m/atl/   Having all these different logos in my
> opinion conveys a perception that
> there is no strategy or integration between the components or the
> projects.
> My 2 cents?.
> Ian   
> ________________________________________
> From: jbezivin@xxxxxxxxx [mailto:jbezivin@xxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jean
> Bezivin
> Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 12:48 PM
> To: PMC members mailing list
> Cc: ian.skerrett@xxxxxxxxxxx; Bjorn Freeman-Benson;
> modeling-pmc-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: [modeling-pmc] feedback on GMT web site
> 
> 
> I agree with you.
> 
> 
> 
> I also agree that we have to improve much the organization of GMT.
> 
> 
> 
> For oAW matters, I will transmit these remarks to Markus Voelter.
> 
> I will discuss with him directly next week at OOPSLA because
> 
> he will be there.
> 
> 
> 
> Bjorn, will you be at OOPSLA and if yes would it be possible
> 
> to have a short meeting with Markus to stress the importance
> 
> of what has been said?
> 
> 
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> 
> 
> Jean
> 
> On 10/19/07, Ed Merks <merks@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Ian,
> 
> I'll draw Nick's attention to that link gone astray...
> 
> I agree with you.  As the various parts of the oAW technology are
> incorporated into the other projects, like Xpand into M2T and MWE into
> EMFT, I'll ask folks to avoid any non-Eclipse branding on the site.  You
> won't find IBM/Rational branding nor Borland branding at Eclipse, so we
> ought not be to seeing anything that isn't part of Eclipse's branding.
> We'll queue up this topic for discussion at the next PMC meeting.
> 
> It would be good to improve GMT's image as well.  What are your thoughts on
> 
> this Jean?
> 
> 
> Ed Merks/Toronto/IBM@IBMCA
> mailto: merks@xxxxxxxxxx
> 905-413-3265  (t/l 969)            "Ian Skerrett"            <
> ian.skerrett@ecl            ipse.org <http://ipse.org>
>>                                                  To            Sent
> by:                  <modeling-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx <
> mailto:modeling-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>             modeling-pmc-boun
>>                                          cc            ces@xxxxxxxxxxx
>>          "'Bjorn
>  Freeman-Benson'"                                      <
> bjorn.freeman-benson@xxxxxxxxxxx>                                             
>                      Subject            10/19/2007
>  12:06          [modeling-pmc] feedback on GMT
> web             PM                        site            Please respond
> to            ian.skerrett@ecli             pse.org <http://pse.org> ;
> Please              respond to              PMC
> members               mailing
> list            <modeling-pmc@ecl                ipse.org <http://ipse.org>
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Modeling PMC,
> 
> Today, I was looking at the open Achitectureware project and in general the
> 
> GMT project.   I don?t usually provide feedback on project specific
> branding and marketing but I thought compelled to do so in this case.
> 
> IMHO, from a branding and marketing perspective, the open Architectureware
> project looks out of place in the context of the Eclipse community.  They
> essentially look like they have parachuted in their existing project into
> an Eclipse project web page.  They actually also seem to have another
> project web site http://www.openarchitectureware.org/.  I find it all very
> confusing and probably detrimental to the Eclipse brand.
> 
> If I look at the GMT site, it seems like the open architectureware scenario
> 
> plays out again and again.   I see lots of project logos and cool names
> that seem to have very little to do with Eclipse?  The perception I am left
> with is that GMT is hovering up existing modeling projects but not really
> integrating them into Eclipse?  I think what you are doing is creating an
> incubator for new modeling projects, which is great, but in my opinion what
> you are communicating is something very different and will hurt the
> perception of the overall modeling project.
> 
> As I said, I usually don?t provide this type of feedback but in this case I
> just had to say something.   I?d be happy to discuss further and if you
> want.
> 
> Btw, when I went to try to find the PMC mailing list, the link on this page
> http://www.eclipse.org/modeling/ points to
> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/emft-dev
> 
> 
> Ian
> 
> Ian Skerrett
> Director of Marketing
> Eclipse Foundation
> 613-224-9461 ext. 227
> blog: ianskerrett.wordpress.com  <http://ianskerrett.wordpress.com>
> _______________________________________________
> modeling-pmc mailing list
> modeling-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx
> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/modeling-pmc
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> modeling-pmc mailing list
> modeling-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx
> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/modeling-pmc
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Richard C. Gronback
> Borland Software Corporation
> richard.gronback@xxxxxxxxxxx
> +1 860 227 9215
> 
> _______________________________________________
> modeling-pmc mailing list
> modeling-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx
> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/modeling-pmc
> 
> 

-- 
Richard C. Gronback
Borland Software Corporation
richard.gronback@xxxxxxxxxxx
+1 860 227 9215



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