linux-distros-dev

> or has it been moved?  

Moved to linuxtools-dev@xxxxxxxxxxxx

Andrew

or has it been moved?  

-Thufir

Andrew,
Projects are required to keep meta data up to date using the MyFoundation
Portal (http://portal.eclipse.org/).  The following problems were found
with this project's meta-data:

* The date for release "0.3.0" is in the past, but the release is not
marked as completed. If it is completed, it should be marked as completed;
if it has been postponed, it should be given a new target date.
* The date for release "0.4.0" is in the past, but the release is not
marked as completed. If it is completed, it should be marked as completed;
if it has been postponed, it should be given a new target date.
* There is no next/future release of this project. All Eclipse projects
must have a "next release" planned and scheduled.

Andrew,
Projects are required to keep meta data up to date using the MyFoundation
Portal (http://portal.eclipse.org/).  The following problems were found
with this project's meta-data:

* The date for release "0.3.0" is in the past, but the release is not
marked as completed. If it is completed, it should be marked as completed;
if it has been postponed, it should be given a new target date.
* There is no next/future release of this project. All Eclipse projects
must have a "next release" planned and scheduled.

(For those of you still receiving this on linux-distros-dev, please move
 to linuxtools-dev [0].)

Hi,

As some of you know, we've been working to make it easier for Linux
distributions to include the Eclipse SDK and additional plugins.  One
obstacle to this was the building of the Eclipse SDK from scratch.  Our
eclipse-build work is trying to help.

We have released a preliminary version, not ready for consumption by
distributions, but ready for testing.  We would greatly appreciate
feedback in the form of bugs (see [1]) of the build working or not
working on various distributions.  Patches to fix any issues are even
more greatly appreciated :)

To get started, download these two files ([2]):

  http://www.eclipse.org/downloads/download.php?file=/technology/linuxtools/eclipse-build/eclipse-build-R0_0_2.tar.gz
  http://www.eclipse.org/downloads/download.php?file=/technology/linuxtools/eclipse-build/eclipse-I20090611-1540-fetched-src.tar.bz2

Untar the first one and in the expanded directory put a symlink to the
second one.  Something like:

  tar zxf eclipse-build-R0_0_2.tar.gz
  cd eclipse-build-R0_0_2
  ln -s ../eclipse-I20090611-1540-fetched-src.tar.bz2

Then, run the build.xml using an existing basebuilder
(R35_M7) checkout.  If you don't have a basebuilder checkout, you can
get it like so:

  cd
  cvs -d:pserver:anonymous@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx:/cvsroot/eclipse co -r R35_M7 \
    org.eclipse.releng.basebuilder

Then run the eclipse-build build.xml with the basebuilder you just
checked out.  Something like:

  cd eclipse-build-R0_0_2
  java -jar \
  ~/org.eclipse.releng.basebuilder/plugins/org.eclipse.equinox.launcher_1.0.200.v20090429-1630.jar \
  -consolelog -data $(pwd)/baseworkspace -Duser.home=$(pwd)/userhome \
  -application org.eclipse.ant.core.antRunner \
  -DbaseBuilder=~/org.eclipse.releng.basebuilder \
  -Dlauncher=~/org.eclipse.releng.basebuilder/plugins/org.eclipse.equinox.launcher_1.0.200.v20090429-1630.jar \
  -Declipse.pdebuild.scripts=~/org.eclipse.releng.basebuilder/plugins/org.eclipse.pde.build_3.5.0.v20090430-1420 \
  -DbuildArch=x86_64 \
  2>&1 | tee build.log

Don't forget to change x86_64 to your architecture.

Things to note:

- this version uses the bundled copies of the dependencies like JUnit,
  ant, etc.
- your JDK is assumed to be in "JPackage style" in /usr/lib/jvm/java
- your JDK is assumed to be 1.6
- we haven't tested on non-x86{,_64}
- make sure you have ~3.5 GB disk space available

Next steps we'd love help with:

- bootstrapping the parts of basebuilder needed to run the build so we
  don't need basebuilder :) [3]
- simplifying the launching [4]
- some sort of easy way to use the system JARs for the dependencies
  (just over-writing them with symlinks will work) [5]
- building and running the tests [6]
- automatically detecting the host architecture [7]

These and our other open bugs are listed here:

http://preview.tinyurl.com/eclipse-build-openbugs

Thanks,

Andrew

[0]
https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/linuxtools-dev

[1]
http://preview.tinyurl.com/eclipse-build-bug
Please include "[eclipse-build]" in the bug's summary.

[2]
I hope that the files have propagated to mirrors by the time you read
this.  md5sums:

2602a3fae7cbf28986b97f46aa706284 eclipse-I20090611-1540-fetched-src.tar.bz2
5794e727e05b7efaf9141d959ecc96ee eclipse-build-R0_0_2.tar.gz

[3]
https://bugs.eclipse.org/214909
https://bugs.eclipse.org/280685

[4]
https://bugs.eclipse.org/280686

[5]
https://bugs.eclipse.org/280688

[6]
https://bugs.eclipse.org/281270

[7]
https://bugs.eclipse.org/281271

Andrew,
Projects are required to keep meta data up to date using the MyFoundation
Portal (http://portal.eclipse.org/).  The following problems were found
with this project's meta-data:

* There is no next/future release of this project. All Eclipse projects
must have a "next release" planned and scheduled.

On Fri, 22 May 2009 19:08:15 +0300
Pantelis Koukousoulas  wrote:

> I just objected to the statement that "ALL" linux users use gnome/gtk
> (us KDE users are
> human beings too, you know :) and we are many too)

hey I like kde too. but you have to admit, kde users are many and very sensible too ;)

> > note that not all programers are linux or even gtk users... :)
> Well, those that use eclipse in linux / gnome probably are ;) Those
> that don't use linux/gnome
> don't have this specific problem :)

In my case, the examples I can give you is windows people trying to migrate their development box to linux. And i'm not agree with that all gnome/linux/eclipse users must know that eclipse visual spacing confguration must to be done customizing a gtk theme.

> > if you make something like
> > [...]
> > So, the sollution has not to be invasive to gtk themes or to other applications...
> 
> Sure it does not *have* to, but if the problem is more general than
> eclipse, then the other applications
> benefit too. If gtk themes are not broken everyone wins.

mmm... perhaps for other more traditional applications the waste of space is a benefit. For example, we programmers want eclipse tree views much compact as possible so we maximize information representation. But in the case of a common user tree widgets (a preferences tree, for example) with no more than 10 nodes, big spacing can be nice. 

In other words, gnome themes seems to be designed for common user trees in mind, not for programmer's trees. 

IMHO a gtk application can and shoud customize its special aspects... but shound't affect other program theme.

> I don't think that the lack of action on eclipse side is on purpose or
> by design.
> It is probably that developers were not aware of the problem/solution,
> or they waited gnome to fix its themes instead.

I think it is not true that  "developers were not aware of the problem/solution"

I asked in irc.freenode.org#eclipse and someone tell me that the reason is "it is not the business of eclipse to touch gtk themes". And I think at some point it is a wise 	
decision but, in this case, imho, too much user usability and visual quality is lost.

IMHO, no matter the cause, eclipse developers are given an extremly low priority to aestetics, visual queality and user experience (at least in linux) and those categories shoud be important in an IDE !

> 
> In any case, it may be problematic to get eclipse people to accept
> using a different way to launch eclipse just for Linux/gtk.
> It is more likely to get the shell script way to be accepted in
> distros, or to have a linux-specific plugin that interacts
> with the gtk configuration system if the user asks it to.
> 

I suspect it too. Also, it would be almost impossible to convince all gtk theme authors that GtkTreeView::horizontal-separator shoud be 0 not other.

> Cheers,
> Pantelis
> 

-- 
Sebastian Gurin 

On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 6:47 PM, Sebastian Gurin
 wrote:
>
> Hi pantelis, nice to switch opinions... I reply between lines..

Heh, I did not switch opinions, I was not against your claim that a
better gtk theme improves
eclipse experience for Linux gnome users. I agreed to that all along.

I just objected to the statement that "ALL" linux users use gnome/gtk
(us KDE users are
human beings too, you know :) and we are many too)

> note that not all programers are linux or even gtk users... :)
Well, those that use eclipse in linux / gnome probably are ;) Those
that don't use linux/gnome
don't have this specific problem :)

> if you make something like
> [...]
> So, the sollution has not to be invasive to gtk themes or to other applications...

Sure it does not *have* to, but if the problem is more general than
eclipse, then the other applications
benefit too. If gtk themes are not broken everyone wins.

If on the other hand fixing eclipse breaks the other apps, then it is
better to have an eclipse-only solution.

>> > 3) it seems that t eclipse is doing nothing to improve eclipse+linux user experience in this way....
>> >
>> > I think eclipse shoud define an appropiate theme customization and at least give the user the oportunity to use it. Believe me that several unexpierienced-in-gnome users will appreciate something like that!
>>
>> That would be nice. Perhaps there can be a "gtk theme configuration
>> plugin" for eclipse developed here in linux-distros.
>> (This might mean though it will only be in e.g., Fedora and Gentoo and
>> not in the official tarballs)
>> Or eclipse could be more explicit in telling users that it is Gtk they
>> should be looking at, if they have theme problems.
>
> both coud be valid sollutions. A simple shell script like I show bellow can be an alternative too (I will try to refine and test a little more about this one and send a fix). My point is that in the current state of things, even for an advanced swt, eclipse, gtk, programmer it is difficult to figure it out how to adjust this waste of space...

I don't think that the lack of action on eclipse side is on purpose or
by design.
It is probably that developers were not aware of the problem/solution,
or they waited gnome to fix its themes instead.

In any case, it may be problematic to get eclipse people to accept
using a different way to launch eclipse just for Linux/gtk.
It is more likely to get the shell script way to be accepted in
distros, or to have a linux-specific plugin that interacts
with the gtk configuration system if the user asks it to.

Cheers,
Pantelis

Hi pantelis, nice to switch opinions... I reply between lines..

On Fri, 22 May 2009 17:40:35 +0300
Pantelis Koukousoulas  wrote:

> On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 5:27 PM, Sebastian Gurin
>  wrote:
> > Hi Pantelis,
> >
> > my opinion about your point is:
> >
> > 1) it is not intuitive, for a common user, that gtk theme is responsible of defining this properties (most users will first go to eclipse's window->preference->appearence and try to futilesness configure from there)
> 
> Agreed, but are programmers "common users"? OTOH eclipse is of course
> used for many more things than an IDE so you are certainly right.
> 

note that not all programers are linux or even gtk users... :)

> >
> > 2) in a normal gnome environment (ubuntu's and opensuse's, for ex) ALL of the themes installed (clearlox, crux, glider, synchronicity, default, highcontrast, etc) waste vertical space in eclispe tree views (imho the principal annoying thing of eclipse linux) My self didn't know till now that there exists a theme gtk-qt that fix this. (but, think about it, why should I know that?)
> 
> For what is worth, it is KDE users that use gtk-qt.
> 
> If all the normal gtk themes are broken, is this a problem only for
> eclipse or for other apps too? 

if you make something like

$ MY_ECLIPSE_GTKRC=~/eclipse/eclipseGtkRc
$ GTK_RC_FILES=$GTK_RC_FILES:$MY_ECLIPSE_GTKRC
$ GTK2_RC_FILES=$GTK2_RC_FILES:$MY_ECLIPSE_GTKRC
$ eclipse &

and write the gtkrc hack to ~/eclipse/eclipseGtkRc, you are able to customize current gtk theme but only for that eclipse instance. So the sollution has not to be invasive to gtk themes or to other applications...

> If there is at least one more app with
> problems then it might be a better choice
> to fix at least one gnome gtk theme imho (preferably all / the most common).

As I said, I don't think the sollution has to be noted in other apps .

> 
> >
> > 3) it seems that t eclipse is doing nothing to improve eclipse+linux user experience in this way....
> >
> > I think eclipse shoud define an appropiate theme customization and at least give the user the oportunity to use it. Believe me that several unexpierienced-in-gnome users will appreciate something like that!
> 
> That would be nice. Perhaps there can be a "gtk theme configuration
> plugin" for eclipse developed here in linux-distros.
> (This might mean though it will only be in e.g., Fedora and Gentoo and
> not in the official tarballs)
> Or eclipse could be more explicit in telling users that it is Gtk they
> should be looking at, if they have theme problems.

both coud be valid sollutions. A simple shell script like I show bellow can be an alternative too (I will try to refine and test a little more about this one and send a fix). My point is that in the current state of things, even for an advanced swt, eclipse, gtk, programmer it is difficult to figure it out how to adjust this waste of space... 

> 
> Cheers,
> Pantelis
> 

-- 
Sebastian Gurin 

On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 5:27 PM, Sebastian Gurin
 wrote:
> Hi Pantelis,
>
> my opinion about your point is:
>
> 1) it is not intuitive, for a common user, that gtk theme is responsible of defining this properties (most users will first go to eclipse's window->preference->appearence and try to futilesness configure from there)

Agreed, but are programmers "common users"? OTOH eclipse is of course
used for many more things than an IDE so you are certainly right.

>
> 2) in a normal gnome environment (ubuntu's and opensuse's, for ex) ALL of the themes installed (clearlox, crux, glider, synchronicity, default, highcontrast, etc) waste vertical space in eclispe tree views (imho the principal annoying thing of eclipse linux) My self didn't know till now that there exists a theme gtk-qt that fix this. (but, think about it, why should I know that?)

For what is worth, it is KDE users that use gtk-qt.

If all the normal gtk themes are broken, is this a problem only for
eclipse or for other apps too? If there is at least one more app with
problems then it might be a better choice
to fix at least one gnome gtk theme imho (preferably all / the most common).

>
> 3) it seems that t eclipse is doing nothing to improve eclipse+linux user experience in this way....
>
> I think eclipse shoud define an appropiate theme customization and at least give the user the oportunity to use it. Believe me that several unexpierienced-in-gnome users will appreciate something like that!

That would be nice. Perhaps there can be a "gtk theme configuration
plugin" for eclipse developed here in linux-distros.
(This might mean though it will only be in e.g., Fedora and Gentoo and
not in the official tarballs)
Or eclipse could be more explicit in telling users that it is Gtk they
should be looking at, if they have theme problems.

Cheers,
Pantelis

linux-distros-dev

Re: [linux-distros-dev] is this group dead?

[linux-distros-dev] is this group dead?

[linux-distros-dev] Project meta data is out of date for technology.linux-distros

[linux-distros-dev] Project meta data is out of date for technology.linux-distros

[linux-distros-dev] Building the Eclipse SDK: eclipse-build 0.0.2

[linux-distros-dev] Project meta data is out of date for technology.linux-distros

Re: [linux-distros-dev] customize gtk theme makes eclipse 100% more usable

Re: [linux-distros-dev] customize gtk theme makes eclipse 100% more usable

Re: [linux-distros-dev] customize gtk theme makes eclipse 100% more usable

Re: [linux-distros-dev] customize gtk theme makes eclipse 100% more usable