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[higgins-dev] Notes for December 17th Higgins developers call

 
Attendees

Alex Amies - IBM

Charles Andres - Parity

* Paula Austel - IBM

   Anthony Bussani - IBM

* Jeff Broberg CA

*  Andy Hodgkinson - Novell

*  Duane Buss - Novell

*   Greg Byrd - NCSU/IBM

*  Brian Carrol - Serena

* Tom Doman - Novell

  Jeesmon Jacob - Parity

  Valery Kokhan - Parity Ukraine

*David Kuehr-Mclaren - IBM

 Mike McIntosh - IBM

Tony Nadalin - IBM

Nataraj Nagaratnam - IBM

* Dale Olds - Novell

* Drummond Reed - Cordance

 Bruce Rich - IBM

*  Mary Ruddy - Parity/SocialPhysics

*  Markus Sabedello - Parity

* Jim Sermersheim - Novell

*Uppili Srinivasan - Oracle

Jim Miles

George Stanchev - Serena

* Daniel Sanders - Novell

* Paul Trevithick - Parity/SocialPhysics

* Carl Binding - IBM

Igor Tsinman - Parity

Lex Sheehan

* Brian Walker - Parity

=====

* Present

Regrets: 

 

Proposed Agenda
 
 

Agenda

======

1) Overall 1.0 Issue status.

Click "1.0 Issues List" link at top of this page:

http://wiki.eclipse.org/index.php/Components

2) Branch options

- will soon create 1.0 branch

3) Documentation

I’ve checked in the architecture PPTs (and some others) into this folder:

http://dev.eclipse.org/viewsvn/index.cgi/org.eclipse.higgins/trunk/doc/org.e

clipse.higgins.doc/?root=Technology_SVN . We'll put links to some of these on the higgins website.

4) Promoting Higgins

- Eclipse site: still waiting for improvements from Eclipse

- Perhaps we need a "marketing" site (higgins-project.org,

higgins.eclipse.org?)

+ no sense of the project itself

+ our brand is overwhelmed by Eclipse's brand

+ apache approach is better http://maven.apache.org http://cocoon.apache.org, http://cocoon.apache.org , etc.

+ like what many projects do "overlaying" sourceforge

- BTW, there's a new book on CardSpace out. Written by MSFT folks. Pretty much a CardSpace sales tool. No mention of Higgins: Understanding Windows

CardSpace: An Introduction to the Concepts and Challenges of Digital Identities, By Vittorio Bertocci, Garrett Serack, Caleb Baker, Copyright 2008, Addison Wesley

- http://www.dataportability.org/ --getting lots of buzz, 655 list members, corporations like Google are "joining"; Should Higgins be raising its profile?

- IBM demo at CES with Android

5) Results of Eclipse survey [Mary]

- 3% said they were using or planning to use Higgins (up from 0% last year)

6) IPR/Release review status (1 item is checkintocvs) [Mary]. Submitted the 1.0 IP Log to Eclipse legal last week. Finishing up the committer and contributor contact list. Starting the review presentation.

7) Planned Higgins regular F2F January 29-31 in Provo:

http://wiki.eclipse.org/Jan_29-31_Provo_F2F_Agenda

 

Notes:

======

 1) 1) Overall 1.0 Issue status. 

Click "1.0 Issues List" link at top of this page:

http://wiki.eclipse.org/index.php/Components 

[Paul]:  Looking at the 1.0 list, I added solution level bugzilla components. You'll also see a new entry for performance, and I changed the format of that display. I sent an email to Andy on his item. I think Jim is leaving his item intentionally.  Next one, Mike hasn't put his bugzillia item away yet. I've been talking to Kim about breaking the beginning of the selector selector code into its own components, but we haven't done this yet.  We may get in a few performance fixes.  We sent an email to Mike about the key generation performance . 

[Paula]:  Mike is in  Korea

[Paul]: Use of Jena is very slow, so we are going to use database backed persistance to lower overhead.  Looking at seeing if can use Higgins.owl for reification.  Markus I will follow up with you on this.  Hopefully this is not a big change.

[Paul]: There has been lots of conversation on list on data models. l am working on a new proposal

2) Branch options

[Paul]: Will soon create a 1.0 branch, until then working on doc and minor fixes. It is my understanding that the way Eclipse does versioning, the next one could be 1.1. We may decide that 1.1 is incremental improvement over 1.0, and then we might need another verison a 1.2 pershaps for more major things.

[Paul]:  It will be interesting in the Face-to-Face to discuss the roadmap polishing 1.0 vslarger changes that go beyond just polishing

3) Documentation

 [Paul]: I’ve checked in the architecture PPTs (and some others) into this folder:

http://dev.eclipse.org/viewsvn/index.cgi/org.eclipse.higgins/trunk/doc/org.eclipse.higgins.doc/?root=Technology_SVN . We'll put links to some of these on the Higgins website.

Therwere a number of PowerPoints and I have checked them in.  Most important is the architecture PowerPoint that is used to generate thdiagrams in the wiki.  Mary I want to talk to you about pulling some of these out. Maybe with a link from the website.  We don't want to have two copies in SVN 

 [Paul]: Another topic not on the list is more clean-up of the Eclipse website I'm creating a list of folders to delete. We can work on this so there are no extra folders..

4) Promoting Higgins

- Eclipse site: still waiting for improvements from Eclipse

- Perhaps we need a "marketing" site (higgins-project.org,

higgins.eclipse.org?)

+ no sense of the project itself

+ our brand is overwhelmed by Eclipse's brand

+ apache approach is better http://maven.apache.org http://cocoon.apache.org, http://cocoon.apache.org , etc.

+ like what many projects do "overlaying" sourceforge

- BTW, there's a new book on CardSpace out. Written by MSFT folks. Pretty much a CardSpace sales tool. No mention of Higgins: Understanding Windows

CardSpace: An Introduction to the Concepts and Challenges of Digital Identities, By Vittorio Bertocci, Garrett Serack, Caleb Baker, Copyright 2008, Addison Wesley

- http://www.dataportability.org/ --getting lots of buzz, 655 list members, corporations like Google are "joining"; Should Higgins be raising its profile?

- IBM demo at CES with Android

[Paul]: We talked to Eclipse about the navigation fix. No new news.  Even if they do make the change, the big question is if it will be enougth.  A number of folks have off list provided input.  On the Higgins site, our brand overwelmed by the Eclipse brand.  Maybe we should go back to the way we did long a go with a separate marketing site for Higgins. We need to maintain some stuff on the Eclipse.org/Higgins site that is required. But have a front door that is more accessible.  I wish Eclipse organized its website like Apache does, so visitors wouldn't get lost.  Mary you and I can talk to Eclipse about a subdomain

[Paul]: The context of another website overlaid over the developer site.  For example many source forge sites are organized this way.  We would be interested about how others feel. Let Mary and I know.

 [Drummond]: I definitely would support this. Higgins is growing as a brand with 1.0 coming out it really needs to be set up so that people can get a clearer picture.

 [Paul]:  I was looking at a project that has 3 different pdf colored introductions.

 [Jim]:  I agree a nice launching page would help

 [Paul]:  Anyone think we should not do this?  Silence

[Paul]:  There is a new CardSpace book that is much better. It is a pure marketing document It is not just about the technologyClearly a book Microsoft will use to evangelizeIt is very readable. There is no mention of  Higgins. There is a mention of DigitalMe. Therefore there is an oblique reference. OSIS is also mentioned.

[Brian]: What is the title?

[Paul]The title is in thagenda  

[Paul]: I was on the phone last night with Microsoft for an hour about terminology. I will mention at the Face-to-Face how that conversation went and next steps.

[Paul]:  Another thing that is now on my radar is Portability.org. They are phenomenal marketers. Some people I really respect like Arron publically blogged about why he is leaving the list huge puff of smoke), but boy it is generating buzz.

[Paul]: It seems like Higgins has a great deal to contribute to conversations, but it also takes marketing cyclesI would encourage folks to take a look.  Randy at Yahoo asked what is Higgins doing about it .

[Daniel?]:  It looked like the sponsors were ignoring enterprise stuff.

[Paul]:  We should all try to get our own sense of it.  List is about 23 messages a dayTo me everything looks like it is missing context. These technologies are appropriate for shallow, global, context free use cases.

 [Paul]:  The next topic is CES. I understand that IBM demonstrated a prototype Higgins card selector running on Google android .  We are also working with android.   We can discuss at the Face-to-Face starting an andriod work area and coordinating our efforts for a unified story.  Maybe others are workinon this as well.  In the specific case of Android, Google hasn't fully open sourced it yet.

[ ??] They haven't released the SDK yet.

[Paul]: At the Face-to-face in NY, Dave of Google was really excited. Though he thought the selector belonged in Android, not Higgins. He was personally very enthusiastic. He can't imagine typing passwords on a mobile phone. There is a prize for android applications.

[David?]:  That has a March deadline That is not impossible. We need to look into IP.

[Dale]:  One other comment on CES. Someone built and demoed a selector selector aCES.  Need to find out what was actually demoed.

[David]: I was working on that team.  What was shown was a demo Google app buy media for a phone and a card selector popped up ...and get customized content based on info in card. 

[Dale]:  Cool.

[David]: I think it was one selector not a selector selector.

[Paul]:  Andriod is not onlymobile platform.  It happens to have Java in it.

[Dale]:  Sounds similar to what mono does.

 [Paul]: The general topics is as Higgins moves through the release process to look more carefully at the documentation.

 [Dale]:  I sent an email to Andy about the documentation of his soluton, DigitalMe. We will get it done. 

 [Paul]: One of topics for the Face-to-Face is: is there a way to bring Digital Me and Higgns a little bit closer... 

 [Dale] I trto say DigitalMe is based on the Higgins identity selector. DigitalMe is just too memorable. I'm open to ideas and discussion. It is a trademarked Novell name.

5) Results of Eclipse survey [Mary]

- 3% said they were using or planning to use Higgins (up from 0% last year) 

[Mary]:  Every year Eclipse commissions a survey about Eclipse usage.  In the 2006 survey no one mentioned that their organizations were using Higgins or planning to use it in the next 12 months. In the 2007 survey, even though Higgins is not released yet, 3% said their organization was using or planning to use Higgins in the next 12 months. 

6) IPR/Release review status (1 item is checkintocvs) [Mary]. Submitted the 1.0 IP Log to Eclipse legal last week. Finishing up the committer and contributor contact list. Starting the review presentation. 

[Mary]:  We still have one item that is checkintocvs (SVN).  I submitted the 1.0 IP log to Eclipse legal last week after the call.  We are finishing up the committer and contributor contact list and I've started work on the review presentation. 

7) Planned Higgins regular F2F January 29-31 in Provo:

http://wiki.eclipse.org/Jan_29-31_Provo_F2F_Agenda

[Mary]:  If you are planning to attend, please add you name to the attendees section of the agenda or let Jim know so that he can order enough food.

[Paul]: Please add additional topics to the agenda.

[Jim]: I did have one question on the agenda.  Can we delay a few topics to Wednesday or Thursday so Daniel can attendMainly he wants to be around for the STS and also the configuration component. Can you keep the STS on Wednesday?  I'm hoping to leave early on Thursday.

[Jim?]: I'd like to do a presentation on our identity provider It is on the agenda. 

[Paul]:  Great.

 [Jim]:  I have lots of  Higgins data model questions

 [Mary/Paul]: Yes.

 [Paul]: Whave talked about the first half of the call being general topics and the second half a special topic. People can leave if they are not interested in the special topic. 

 [Jim]:  I have 5 data model topics.  The first topic...

 [Paul]: In my perspective, first off we are trying not to reinvent things. I selected owl, then thought lets see how it works.  Fairly soon I found owl couldn't express certain concepts. Then thought was to layer on owl to evolve a data model that meets our needs.  I don't think of the IdAS API as being definitial. 

[Jim]: I think so. API is just reactive to what we decide.  In my mind owl has moved back and forth:  Decide what want, represent it in owlthen implement.

[Drummond]: Where is it authoritatively specified how what you just said works?

[Paul]: I agree. I will take notes ango back and try to make it clear

[Jim]: It is important to make that clear.  Someone will say your API does something I don't expect. The owl restrictme from doing x therfore your API should similarly behave.  Need to have data model on wiki and explain in human language what the intention is.

[David]: One of the things I hope to get out of the data model is the ability to work with it programatically.  If the model can be expressed, it make it easier to work with.

[Paul]:  We used to use EMF extensively and the IBM symantic tool kit trying to bridge those worldsThere arsymatic mismatatches between EMF and owl. They are close.  But it wasn't mature enough. The jena API was very established. Personally I'm a real EMF fan. It just didnt work 2 yearago when we tried it.

[David]:  Are we still commited to owl as the expression?

 [Paul]: The shoranswer is yes. We are learning what the limits are gradually. I  am currently working on cleaning up Higgins owl

 [Jim or David]: It would be interesting to know if there was a way for an IdAS to emit its model.

 [Paul]:  That was another problemIn the early days of the project we used to have dependencies.  EMF is only expressed in Java. This was a problem for Novell.

 [Jim]: Could something be emitted that EMF could consume?

 [David]:  That is exactly what I'm saying. Make it consumable by popular tools.  I will look into it.

 [Jim]: Item 2: data model expressiveness.  There is disagreement as to what the types are.  What kind of types are allowed to describe an attibute value. Tom's understanding is that any URI could be there  (for simple types). I thought we were restricted to 20 basic xml data types.  It effects IdAS, at least the doc.

 [Paul]:One question I have. Are people chafing against that?

 [Jim]:  Tom can speak to that.

 [Tom]: There are two things involved.  Supposed to be created in types, not just value types derived from a Higgintype.  As far as value types go, in the  LDAP stuff, these are different

 [Jim]: Are there LDAP syntaxes that can't be rep resented by the 20 something types?

 [Tom ]: No. It is dooable.

[Paul]: On that one, I'm working on an anwer, but am not done yet. 

[Jim]: Should we allow an attributto contain values of two different data types? Concensus would say no, they are the same value type. Didn't get a lot of conversation after Daniel 's comments.

 To be continued.

 


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