gmf-dev http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/gmf-dev/maillist.html gmf-dev en-us Mon, 10 Jun 2013 10:50:09 GMT Mon, 10 Jun 2013 10:50:09 GMT http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/tech/rss MHonArc RSS 2.0 RCFile webmaster@eclipse.org (Webmaster) webmaster@eclipse.org (Webmaster) gmf-dev http://www.eclipse.org/eclipse.org-common/themes/Phoenix/images/eclipse_home_header.jpg http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/gmf-dev/maillist.html Re: [gmf-dev] About upcoming Eclipse Sirius project http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/gmf-dev/msg02046.html In my opinion, it makes a big difference for adopters. Most people who'll have a look at adopting GMF Tooling vs adopting Sirius tutorial will probably go to Sirius because of the interpretative approach allows a simpler and faster workflow. Why would the...

Thanks for your input, the summary is appreciated.
I don't think Generative versus Interpretative is the big difference between GMF Tooling and Sirius.
In my opinion, it makes a big difference for adopters. Most people who'll have a look at adopting GMF Tooling vs adopting Sirius tutorial will probably go to Sirius because of the interpretative approach allows a simpler and faster workflow.
Why would they care about a faster workflow, if they get their result quicker, and more stable with a tool that uses a generative approach?

We will check with our sponsor, and the community whether they want an interpretative modus too.
The main strength of GMF Tooling is that it is a pure open source project, without any dependency on a commercial project. Even the largest user, Papyrus, is a pure open source project, and not a commercial product. The developers of GMF Tooling, and now as well QVTO are recruited among the original developers of the EMF Modeling Frameworks at Borland/Together, and work at good, but local rates in Prague and St. Petersburg, without any other organization in the middle. The sponsorship money flows directly to the developers.
Like this, the GMF Tooling project can quickly replay for more requests from the community or the commercial users. Currently we focus communicating this capabilities to the Swiss financial industry, but we will do broader communication soon.
I'm not saying anything bad against GMF Tooling and the companies behind GMF Tooling development.
Yes, but you tell, that because GMF Tooling does not feature interpretative Diagram Editors, it will not be used by new people. You put things in absolute terms.


I know GMF Tooling is a project that powers a lot of very nice diagram editors ;) I'm just trying to highlight that GMF Tooling will soon have Sirius as a main competitor project (same goal, same license, Eclipse label), and that in the current status of GMF Tooling and Sirius, Sirius will probably be the choice of newcomers in Eclipse diagram world.
We work on easy to use WYSIWYG editors for GMF Tooling. As you noted, the fact that you avoid the generation step may convince some not to use it, some will use it.

So what you tell us, is that no more Spray is the main competitor, but Sirius. Good to know.

We will investigate carefully, and make sure we provide better value to adopters.

By the way, thanks for your last input, regarding SimpleMap. It finally led to a merger of the two projects, and the mentioned WYSIWYG editors for GMF Tooling.

Regards, Philipp

]]> Mon, 10 Jun 2013 10:47:42 GMT http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/gmf-dev/msg02046.html kutter@xxxxxxx (Philipp W. Kutter | Montages AG) Re: [gmf-dev] About upcoming Eclipse Sirius project http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/gmf-dev/msg02045.html Hi Philippe, In my opinion, it makes a big difference for adopters. Most people who'll have a look at adopting GMF Tooling vs adopting Sirius tutorial will probably go to Sirius because of the interpretative approach allows a simpler and faster workflow. ...
On 06/10/2013 09:06 AM, Philipp W. Kutter | Montages AG wrote:
Hi, Mickael.
Hi Philippe,

Thanks for your input, the summary is appreciated.
I don't think Generative versus Interpretative is the big difference between GMF Tooling and Sirius.
In my opinion, it makes a big difference for adopters. Most people who'll have a look at adopting GMF Tooling vs adopting Sirius tutorial will probably go to Sirius because of the interpretative approach allows a simpler and faster workflow.

Adding interpretation modus to GMF Tooling will just be another feature to be added or not, at some suited point in the GMF Tooling roadmap.
There are a lot of things on the GMF Tooling roadmap, and when and how to tackle interpreted diagram editor models will depend on the demand from the user community, of major adoptors and users like the Papyrus project, and of the GMF Tooling sponsor, who has a population of 90 DSLs written in ECore.
Sure, but that's still a potential point in roadmap, whereas Sirius will provide it in its first release. I'm afraid for GMF Tooling that once Sirius gets released, the GMF Tooling community just stops growing in favor of the Sirius one.

The last release of GMF Tooling moved a lot of functionality that was previously in code to QVTO and OCL, including impact analysis for the OCL part. Thus a major step towards interpreted diagram editor models was already done in GMF Tooling. If another prototype for doing it exists in open source, in the form of Sirius, this will only help to speed up adding it to GMF Tooling too.
Of course, but such a project interpreting GMF Tooling models as configurators of a diagram editor does not exist.

The main strength of GMF Tooling is that it is a pure open source project, without any dependency on a commercial project. Even the largest user, Papyrus, is a pure open source project, and not a commercial product. The developers of GMF Tooling, and now as well QVTO are recruited among the original developers of the EMF Modeling Frameworks at Borland/Together, and work at good, but local rates in Prague and St. Petersburg, without any other organization in the middle. The sponsorship money flows directly to the developers.
Like this, the GMF Tooling project can quickly replay for more requests from the community or the commercial users. Currently we focus communicating this capabilities to the Swiss financial industry, but we will do broader communication soon.
I'm not saying anything bad against GMF Tooling and the companies behind GMF Tooling development. I know GMF Tooling is a project that powers a lot of very nice diagram editors ;) I'm just trying to highlight that GMF Tooling will soon have Sirius as a main competitor project (same goal, same license, Eclipse label), and that in the current status of GMF Tooling and Sirius, Sirius will probably be the choice of newcomers in Eclipse diagram world.

Hope to see you at Models2013, to finally meet you in person, and dicusss.
Unfortunately, I won't be at Models2013. I guess you've all noticed that Modeling is no more my main activity since I joined Red Hat.

Regards, and have a nice week,
Thanks, you too.
--
Mickael Istria
Eclipse developer at JBoss, by Red Hat
My blog - My Tweets
]]> Mon, 10 Jun 2013 07:32:05 GMT http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/gmf-dev/msg02045.html mistria@xxxxxxx (Mickael Istria) Re: [gmf-dev] About upcoming Eclipse Sirius project http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/gmf-dev/msg02044.html Philipp W. Kutter CEO, Dr. sc. ETH Montages Management GmbH Badenerstrasse 549 CH-8048 Zürich tel: +41 44 260 75 57 mob: +41 43 210 96 01 web: www.montages.com Get a signature like this. Click here.
Hi, Mickael.
Thanks for your input, the summary is appreciated.

I don't think Generative versus Interpretative is the big difference between GMF Tooling and Sirius.

Adding interpretation modus to GMF Tooling will just be another feature to be added or not, at some suited point in the GMF Tooling roadmap.

We have already shown that the MDA architecture of GMF allowed to target as well the Graphiti Runtime, and it allowed to integrate the work of the people working on SimpleMap, a way to do WYSIWIG graphical editors.

The main difference between GMF Tooling, and the new overlapping projects like Spray or Sirius is that we at GMF Tooling care about a big basis of existing users. Among them is the Papyrus project, which generates graphical editors for UML2.

A lot of the functionality that was added by Obeo Designer to GMF Tooling is now going to be included in GMF Tooling directly, and a lot more will be added by down-porting features from Papyrus to GMF Tooling, and applying new features of GMF Tooling to Papyrus.

There are a lot of things on the GMF Tooling roadmap, and when and how to tackle interpreted diagram editor models will depend on the demand from the user community, of major adoptors and users like the Papyrus project, and of the GMF Tooling sponsor, who has a population of 90 DSLs written in ECore.

The last release of GMF Tooling moved a lot of functionality that was previously in code to QVTO and OCL, including impact analysis for the OCL part. Thus a major step towards interpreted diagram editor models was already done in GMF Tooling. If another prototype for doing it exists in open source, in the form of Sirius, this will only help to speed up adding it to GMF Tooling too.


The main strength of GMF Tooling is that it is a pure open source project, without any dependency on a commercial project. Even the largest user, Papyrus, is a pure open source project, and not a commercial product. The developers of GMF Tooling, and now as well QVTO are recruited among the original developers of the EMF Modeling Frameworks at Borland/Together, and work at good, but local rates in Prague and St. Petersburg, without any other organization in the middle. The sponsorship money flows directly to the developers.

Like this, the GMF Tooling project can quickly replay for more requests from the community or the commercial users. Currently we focus communicating this capabilities to the Swiss financial industry, but we will do broader communication soon.

Hope to see you at Models2013, to finally meet you in person, and dicusss.
Regards, and have a nice week,
Philipp

On 10.06.2013 08:00, Mickael Istria wrote:
Hi all,

I had the opportunity to see a presentation about Sirius at EclipseCon France. This project, which used to be a main piece of Obeo Designer, will soon become an Eclipse project under EPL license and will join Luna release train.
The goal of Sirius is the same as GMF Tooling: provide efficient tool to create diagram editor relying on GMF Runtime APIs. However, Sirius does not use generation, it interprets an editor model which defines graphical elements, mappings, tools and so on at runtime. Although one could expect some drawbacks in performance, the demo I saw looks as performant as an editor generated by GMF Tooling. However, Obeo folks have admitted that there is a bigger memory footprint with Sirius, but this has never been a blocking point for their use-cases yet, and the presentation showed some very big use-cases.
Their non-generative approach has a big advantage: changes on editor model can be done on the fly so while you edit your editor model, you immediatly see how it affects the actual diagram editor (diagram editor listens to change on diagram metamodel and reacts immediatly), this allow way faster iterations with faster feedback since there is no more generation. Also the tooling is more polished and easier to understand than GMF Tooling one. Overall, it makes a Sirius-based editor easier to develop and maintain. In the demo, they developed a concrete simple editor in 4 iterations with nice pictures for nodes and dynamic change on node figure based on some attribute value in less than 20 minutes.

I highly encourage everyone interested in GMF Tooling to have a look at Sirius, it has a "wow" effect. Unfortunately, I couldn't find a video:
* http://www.eclipse.org/proposals/modeling.sirius/
* http://model-driven-blogging.blogspot.fr/2013/03/introducing-eclipse-sirius.html

Cheers,
--
Mickael Istria
Eclipse developer at JBoss, by Red Hat
My blog - My Tweets


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Philipp W. Kutter
CEO, Dr. sc. ETH
 Montages Management GmbH
Badenerstrasse 549
CH-8048 Zürich

tel:    +41 44 260 75 57
mob: +41 43 210 96 01
web: www.montages.com
]]> Mon, 10 Jun 2013 07:06:37 GMT http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/gmf-dev/msg02044.html kutter@xxxxxxx (Philipp W. Kutter | Montages AG) [gmf-dev] About upcoming Eclipse Sirius project http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/gmf-dev/msg02043.html Hi all, I had the opportunity to see a presentation about Sirius at EclipseCon France. This project, which used to be a main piece of Obeo Designer, will soon become an Eclipse project under EPL license and will join Luna release train. The goal of Sirius... Hi all,

I had the opportunity to see a presentation about Sirius at EclipseCon France. This project, which used to be a main piece of Obeo Designer, will soon become an Eclipse project under EPL license and will join Luna release train.
The goal of Sirius is the same as GMF Tooling: provide efficient tool to create diagram editor relying on GMF Runtime APIs. However, Sirius does not use generation, it interprets an editor model which defines graphical elements, mappings, tools and so on at runtime. Although one could expect some drawbacks in performance, the demo I saw looks as performant as an editor generated by GMF Tooling. However, Obeo folks have admitted that there is a bigger memory footprint with Sirius, but this has never been a blocking point for their use-cases yet, and the presentation showed some very big use-cases.
Their non-generative approach has a big advantage: changes on editor model can be done on the fly so while you edit your editor model, you immediatly see how it affects the actual diagram editor (diagram editor listens to change on diagram metamodel and reacts immediatly), this allow way faster iterations with faster feedback since there is no more generation. Also the tooling is more polished and easier to understand than GMF Tooling one. Overall, it makes a Sirius-based editor easier to develop and maintain. In the demo, they developed a concrete simple editor in 4 iterations with nice pictures for nodes and dynamic change on node figure based on some attribute value in less than 20 minutes.

I highly encourage everyone interested in GMF Tooling to have a look at Sirius, it has a "wow" effect. Unfortunately, I couldn't find a video:
* http://www.eclipse.org/proposals/modeling.sirius/
* http://model-driven-blogging.blogspot.fr/2013/03/introducing-eclipse-sirius.html

Cheers,
--
Mickael Istria
Eclipse developer at JBoss, by Red Hat
My blog - My Tweets
]]> Mon, 10 Jun 2013 06:00:35 GMT http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/gmf-dev/msg02043.html mistria@xxxxxxx (Mickael Istria) [gmf-dev] [modeling-dev] [mdt-dev] Sphinx 0.7.0 Release Review http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/gmf-dev/msg02042.html Hi Modeling PMC,  Please approve the release review for Sphinx 0.7.0.  The release review materials are attached. What is the procedure to integrate them into the Sphinx project info page? The approved IP log is attached to:  https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/... Hi Modeling PMC, 

Please approve the release review for Sphinx 0.7.0. 

The release review materials are attached. What is the procedure to integrate them into the Sphinx project info page?

The approved IP log is attached to: 
https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/attachment.cgi?id=229769

Kind regards,

Stephan

Attachment: Sphinx Release Review 0.7.0.pdf
Description: Adobe PDF document

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]]> Fri, 31 May 2013 08:18:39 GMT http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/gmf-dev/msg02042.html stephaneberle9@xxxxxxx (Stephan Eberle) [gmf-dev] [modeling-dev] GMF Notation 1.7.0 Release Review http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/gmf-dev/msg02041.html Hi Modeling PMC, Please approve the release review for GMF Notation 1.7.0. The release review materials are at: http://projects.eclipse.org/projects/modeling.gmp.gmf-notation/releases/1.7.0 The approved IP log is attached to: https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/... Hi Modeling PMC,

Please approve the release review for GMF Notation 1.7.0.
The release review materials are at:
http://projects.eclipse.org/projects/modeling.gmp.gmf-notation/releases/1.7.0
The approved IP log is attached to:
https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=407596

Cheers...
Anthony

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]]> Thu, 30 May 2013 16:43:51 GMT http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/gmf-dev/msg02041.html anthonyh@xxxxxxx (Anthony Hunter) [gmf-dev] [modeling-dev] GMF Runtime 1.7.0 Release Review http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/gmf-dev/msg02040.html Hi Modeling PMC, Please approve the release review for GMF Runtime 1.7.0. The release review materials are at: http://projects.eclipse.org/projects/modeling.gmp.gmf-runtime/releases/1.7.0 The approved IP log is attached to: https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/sh... Hi Modeling PMC,

Please approve the release review for GMF Runtime 1.7.0.
The release review materials are at:
http://projects.eclipse.org/projects/modeling.gmp.gmf-runtime/releases/1.7.0
The approved IP log is attached to:
https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=407595

Cheers...
Anthony

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]]> Thu, 30 May 2013 16:43:00 GMT http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/gmf-dev/msg02040.html anthonyh@xxxxxxx (Anthony Hunter) [gmf-dev] [modeling-dev] EMF Validation 1.7.0 Release Review http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/gmf-dev/msg02039.html Hi Modeling PMC, Please approve the release review for EMF Validation 1.7.0. The release review materials are at: http://projects.eclipse.org/projects/modeling.emf.validation/releases/1.7.0 The approved IP log is attached to: https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/... Hi Modeling PMC,

Please approve the release review for EMF Validation 1.7.0.
The release review materials are at:
http://projects.eclipse.org/projects/modeling.emf.validation/releases/1.7.0
The approved IP log is attached to:
https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=407592

Cheers...
Anthony

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]]> Thu, 30 May 2013 16:40:03 GMT http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/gmf-dev/msg02039.html anthonyh@xxxxxxx (Anthony Hunter) [gmf-dev] [modeling-dev] EMF Transaction 1.7.0 Release Review http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/gmf-dev/msg02038.html Hi Modeling PMC, Please approve the release review for EMF Transaction 1.7.0. The release review materials are at: http://projects.eclipse.org/projects/modeling.emf.transaction/releases/1.7.0 The approved IP log is attached to: https://bugs.eclipse.org/bug... Hi Modeling PMC,

Please approve the release review for EMF Transaction 1.7.0.
The release review materials are at:
http://projects.eclipse.org/projects/modeling.emf.transaction/releases/1.7.0
The approved IP log is attached to:
https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=407594

Cheers...
Anthony

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]]> Thu, 30 May 2013 16:39:14 GMT http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/gmf-dev/msg02038.html anthonyh@xxxxxxx (Anthony Hunter) [gmf-dev] [modeling-dev] EMF Query 1.7.0 Release Review http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/gmf-dev/msg02037.html Hi Modeling PMC, Please approve the release review for EMF Query 1.7.0. The release review materials are at: http://projects.eclipse.org/projects/modeling.emf.query/releases/1.7.0/ The approved IP log is attached to: https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.... Hi Modeling PMC,

Please approve the release review for EMF Query 1.7.0.
The release review materials are at:
http://projects.eclipse.org/projects/modeling.emf.query/releases/1.7.0/
The approved IP log is attached to:
https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=407593

Cheers...
Anthony
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]]> Thu, 30 May 2013 16:36:49 GMT http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/gmf-dev/msg02037.html anthonyh@xxxxxxx (Anthony Hunter)