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Re: [epp-dev] Minimum BREE for EPP Neon
Ping. Anyone have some advice as to where to capture this information in the wiki?
I'm willing to do the work, I just need to know where it should go.

Eric
August 25, 2015 2:22 PM
Thanks Aleksandar and Martin for providing the details of the decision. I'd like to capture this info in a wiki page to refer users to when Neon releases; any suggestion on a good place in the wiki for this to live? I looked at the "Eclipse_Project" category (https://wiki.eclipse.org/Category:Eclipse_Project) but didn't see an obvious good home there; it also wasn't clear that the content there is very up-to-date.

Eric


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August 18, 2015 1:41 PM
----- Original Message -----

From: "Martin Oberhuber" <Martin.Oberhuber@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "Eclipse Packaging Project" <epp-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, 18 August, 2015 6:19:36 PM
Subject: Re: [epp-dev] Minimum BREE for EPP Neon



Hi Eric, all –



Since I was part of the Eclipse Platform PMC decision moving to Java 8, I
briefly wanted to mention some reasons for that decision:



- Java 8 is available today on all major Platforms – including Linux-ARM for
example – and by multiple JRE vendors. In terms of security fixes, it’s
safer than Java 7 (TLSv1.2 for example is only enabled in Java 8 by
default).

- By the time Neon ships, Java 8 will be 2 years old (so one can’t call that
bleeding edge J )

- Finally, Java 8 introduces some interesting new language features which
some contributors can’t wait using. This is a difference compared to Java 7
which just updated the libraries but not the language. It’s true we have to
cater to users, but we also have to cater to the contributors. If the
Eclipse Platform starts looking old-fashioned and lame (and forbidding new
language features puts us at risk of looking so), we’d risk losing
contributors (which the Platform really needs).

It's worth mentioning also that what pulled the trigger was Eclipse Help system which relies on Jetty and it requires Java 8 in it's latest (and safest) release.

Alexander Kurtakov
Red Hat Eclipse team


So, this decision was not about giving developers any toys, but it was
carefully weighing in on the aspects mentioned above. While some (hopefully
few) might struggle with this decision, we hope that the benefit outweighs
the itches.

See also the Aug5 meeting notes here: https://wiki.eclipse.org/Eclipse/PMC



Thanks,

Martin

--

Martin Oberhuber , SMTS / Product Owner – Development Tools, Wind River

direct +43.662.457915.85 fax +43.662.457915.6



From: epp-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:epp-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Lars Vogel
Sent: Monday, August 17, 2015 11:28 PM
To: Eclipse Packaging Project
Subject: Re: [epp-dev] Minimum BREE for EPP Neon




Hi Eric and all,





FYI - the platform PMC decided to also move to Java 8 for Neon, Dani just
announced it on cross.





Best regards, Lars





On Thu, Jul 30, 2015 at 8:18 PM, Eric Rizzo < eclipse-mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx >
wrote:


I'm not an EPP package maintainer or committer, but I'd like to provide some
user-community perspective on this.
Java 8 is just over 1 year old, and it's well known that many people and
(especially) corporations are slow to adopt new versions. If Eclipse
packages were to require Java 8, I can pretty much guarantee, based on many
years' experience supporting the community, that there will be many
complaints and confused users. In fact, in a corporate environment where
users literally can not update their own workstations, I'd say it's highly
likely that users would be unable to use Neon, or at least have to jump
through corporate IT hoops to get it working.

I'm not knocking Java 8 (at least not here), I'm just trying to keep everyone
focused on the users. Just because we, as tool developers, are enamored and
in love with the latest toys doesn't mean we can justify pushing them down
the throats of our large user base.

Eric






Lars Vogel


July 30, 2015 1:52 PM


Hi,

I noticed yesterday that m2e moved to Java 8, which triggered this
request. I contacted Markus Knauer and he suggested that I should send
an email to this list to trigger the discussion about BREE for the
EPP's in Neon.

I personally think it would be great to require Java 8 as BREE for the
EPP out of the following reasons:

- Java 7 is out of public maintenance
- if the EPP's decide early that they will require Java 8, other
project will have the option to improve their code base based on Java
8
- if m2e requires Java 8, AFAIK this would bump the most important
EPP's also to Java 8.

In Platform UI I would also like to support the Java 8 Date and Time
API via Databinding, which would also bump platform to Java 8. This is
not yet implement but on our roadmap. AFAIK the Jetty webserver also
requires Java 8, which would result in a bump in the Eclipse Help
system to Java 8.

Best regards, Lars







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this list, visit
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--


Eclipse Platform UI and e4 project co-lead
CEO vogella GmbH

Haindaalwisch 17a, 22395 Hamburg
Amtsgericht Hamburg: HRB 127058
Geschäftsführer: Lars Vogel, Jennifer Nerlich de Vogel
USt-IdNr.: DE284122352
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http://www.vogella.com

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epp-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe from this list, visit
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August 18, 2015 11:19 AM

Hi Eric, all –

 

Since I was part of the Eclipse Platform PMC decision moving to Java 8, I briefly wanted to mention some reasons for that decision:

 

-          Java 8 is available today on all major Platforms – including Linux-ARM for example – and by multiple JRE vendors. In terms of security fixes, it’s safer than Java 7 (TLSv1.2 for example is only enabled in Java 8 by default).

-          By the time Neon ships, Java 8 will be 2 years old (so one can’t call that bleeding edge J)

-          Finally, Java 8 introduces some interesting new language features which some contributors can’t wait using. This is a difference compared to Java 7 which just updated the libraries but not the language. It’s true we have to cater to users, but we also have to cater to the contributors. If the Eclipse Platform starts looking old-fashioned and lame (and forbidding new language features puts us at risk of looking so), we’d risk losing contributors (which the Platform really needs).

 

So, this decision was not about giving developers any toys, but it was carefully weighing in on the aspects mentioned above. While some (hopefully few) might struggle with this decision, we hope that the benefit outweighs the itches.

See also the Aug5 meeting notes here: https://wiki.eclipse.org/Eclipse/PMC

 

Thanks,

Martin

--

Martin Oberhuber, SMTS / Product Owner – Development Tools, Wind River

direct +43.662.457915.85  fax +43.662.457915.6

 

From: epp-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:epp-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Lars Vogel
Sent: Monday, August 17, 2015 11:28 PM
To: Eclipse Packaging Project
Subject: Re: [epp-dev] Minimum BREE for EPP Neon

 

Hi Eric and all,

 

FYI - the platform PMC decided to also move to Java 8 for Neon, Dani just announced it on cross.

 

Best regards, Lars

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epp-dev mailing list
epp-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
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https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/epp-dev
July 30, 2015 2:18 PM
I'm not an EPP package maintainer or committer, but I'd like to provide some user-community perspective on this.
Java 8 is just over 1 year old, and it's well known that many people and (especially) corporations are slow to adopt new versions. If Eclipse packages were to require Java 8, I can pretty much guarantee, based on many years' experience supporting the community, that there will be many complaints and confused users. In fact, in a corporate environment where users literally can not update their own workstations, I'd say it's highly likely that users would be unable to use Neon, or at least have to jump through corporate IT hoops to get it working.

I'm not knocking Java 8 (at least not here), I'm just trying to keep everyone focused on the users. Just because we, as tool developers, are enamored and in love with the latest toys doesn't mean we can justify pushing them down the throats of our large user base.

Eric


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