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Re: [epp-dev] Minimum BREE for EPP Neon

I wonder if it is possible to embed the JRE in the EPP packages, so users get out-of-the-box the required JRE and avoid all the confusion discussed here?
Is there anything preventing Eclipse EPP to redistribute the JRE?

Kaloyan

On Fri, Jul 31, 2015 at 9:10 AM, Lars Vogel <lars.vogel@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Thanks Dani and David for the technical explanation. Also good to say
the same thing twice. ;-)

My argumentation was more from the user side: If Java EPP wants to
ship working Maven support its users must use Java 8.

I personally would think that it would be confusing for the user to
download Java EPP including Maven (based on the website information),
etc and after starting the Eclipse IDE not having Maven available. But
I'm not an EPP owner, so this is just an opinion.

Best regards, Lars

On Fri, Jul 31, 2015 at 8:04 AM, Daniel Megert <daniel_megert@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> AFAIK every project (in this case EPP) can set its BREE independently. As
>> EPP is kind of special as it consumes others. This kind of forces them to
>> pick the hightest BREE of their components.
>
> This is not true. As David pointed out, the BREE is per bundle. A package or
> download can contain bundles that have a higher BREE than the minimum JRE
> defined to run it. It just means that some functionality will not work in
> that case. Even the Eclipse SDK ships bundles with BREE JavaSE-1.8 even
> though JavaSE-1.7 is still a reference platform. Of course, if a core bundle
> moves up, then the case is clear, that's why we are much more strict to
> allow bundles lower in the stack to be moved up For the Jetty argument, It
> is up to the product owners to decide whether Help is a required part of the
> product or is optional i.e. working only for those using a higher JRE than
> the minimum.
>
> Dani
>
>
>
> From:        Lars Vogel <lars.vogel@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> To:        Eclipse Packaging Project <epp-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> Date:        30.07.2015 23:03
> Subject:        Re: [epp-dev] Minimum BREE for EPP Neon
> Sent by:        epp-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
> ________________________________
>
>
>
> AFAIK every project (in this case EPP) can set its BREE independently. As
> EPP is kind of special as it consumes others. This kind of forces them to
> pick the hightest BREE of their components.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 30, 2015 at 10:49 PM, Doug Schaefer <dschaefer@xxxxxxx> wrote:
> Actually, this discussion should probably go to the cross projects list.
> It’s not clear to me who has the power to make this decision. Does the EPP
> have any power over this? It can keep the BREE at 7 and deliver broken
> packages, but that’s probably not a practical path.
>
> Doug
>
> From: <epp-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx> on behalf of Konstantin Komissarchik
> <konstantin.komissarchik@xxxxxxxxxx>
> Reply-To: Eclipse Packaging Project <epp-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 4:34 PM
> To: 'Eclipse Packaging Project' <epp-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: Re: [epp-dev] Minimum BREE for EPP Neon
>
> Unfortunately Oomph isn’t a full solution here as you need to be able to run
> Oomph, which is built on the same foundation as Eclipse. Oomph might catch
> and handle some cases, but not everything.
>
>
>
> - Konstantin
>
>
>
>
>
> From: epp-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:epp-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] On
> Behalf Of Eric Rizzo
> Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2015 1:08 PM
>
>
> To: Eclipse Packaging Project
> Subject: Re: [epp-dev] Minimum BREE for EPP Neon
>
>
>
> Konstantin Komissarchik
>
> July 30, 2015 3:54 PM
>
> One more thing… Most of the Java-version issues that we’ve seen in our
> support cases could be remedied by enhancing Eclipse launcher to prompt user
> to select a compatible JVM. That is, the issue isn’t so much that users
> can’t have a particular Java version, but rather that they have multiple
> versions and Eclipse chooses the wrong one, or they simply don’t know that
> they need to install a new version.
>
>
>
> - Konstantin
>
>
> Well Oomph takes care of that particular problem (although IMO the UI for it
> still could use a bit of tweaking); I suspect by the time Neon ships, Oomph
> will be in full stride as the most-endorsed way of getting Eclipse (I'm
> pretty sure that's the way Ed and Eike would like to see it be :-).  That of
> course would mean the EPP packages take on a diminished role to the general
> user community.
>
> Eric
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Konstantin Komissarchik [mailto:konstantin.komissarchik@xxxxxxxxxx]
> Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2015 12:49 PM
> To: 'Eclipse Packaging Project'
> Subject: RE: [epp-dev] Minimum BREE for EPP Neon
>
>
>
> What’s wrong with the answer that developers in environments that can’t have
> Java 8 have to stay on the Mars service line and rely on long term support
> organizations for bug fixes?
>
>
>
> Another thing to note is that by the time that Neon ships, Java 9 will be
> just around the corner.
>
>
>
> - Konstantin
>
>
>
>
>
> From:epp-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:epp-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] On
> Behalf Of Eric Rizzo
> Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2015 12:02 PM
> To: Eclipse Packaging Project
> Subject: Re: [epp-dev] Minimum BREE for EPP Neon
>
>
>
>
> Valid point, Doug. It gives me a little relief from me concerns, but doesn't
> totally eliminate them.
>
>
>
> There are pretty easy workarounds for those users who can’t upgrade their
> Java yet somehow found a way to install Eclipse on their machines. The
> embedded jre in the Eclipse directory still works.
>
> You'd think we're dealing with a user base, being primarily developers, who
> could easily deal with such workarounds. But time has shown that assumption
> isn't as reliable as one might think. One problem is that Oracle makes a
> portable (non-installer) JDK harder and harder to obtain. Eclipse itself
> doesn't need a typical Windows installer, but JDK does.
>
> Eric
>
>
>
> Doug.
>
>
>
> From: <epp-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx> on behalf of Lars Vogel
> <lars.vogel@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> Reply-To: Eclipse Packaging Project <epp-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 2:29 PM
> To: Eclipse Packaging Project <epp-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>, Marcel Bruch
> <marcel.bruch@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: Re: [epp-dev] Minimum BREE for EPP Neon
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> This transmission (including any attachments) may contain confidential
> information, privileged material (including material protected by the
> solicitor-client or other applicable privileges), or constitute non-public
> information. Any use of this information by anyone other than the intended
> recipient is prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error,
> please immediately reply to the sender and delete this information from your
> system. Use, dissemination, distribution, or reproduction of this
> transmission by unintended recipients is not authorized and may be unlawful.
>
> _______________________________________________
> epp-dev mailing list
> epp-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
> To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe from
> this list, visit
> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/epp-dev
>
> Lars Vogel
>
> July 30, 2015 2:29 PM
>
> Hi Eric,
>
>
>
> In this context I think we should look at the current user base. Marcel (cc)
> recently gave same real data about the current user base of Mars. @Marcel,
> please feel free to provide better numbers, but IIRC approx. 75% of the
> error reporters using Eclipse Mars are using already Java 8.
>
>
>
> Best regards, Lars
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Eclipse Platform UI and e4 project co-lead
> CEO vogella GmbH
>
> Haindaalwisch 17a, 22395 Hamburg
> Amtsgericht Hamburg: HRB 127058
> Geschäftsführer: Lars Vogel, Jennifer Nerlich de Vogel
> USt-IdNr.: DE284122352
> Fax (032) 221739404, Email: lars.vogel@xxxxxxxxxxx, Web:
> http://www.vogella.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> epp-dev mailing list
> epp-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
> To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe from
> this list, visit
> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/epp-dev
>
> Eric Rizzo
>
> July 30, 2015 2:18 PM
>
> I'm not an EPP package maintainer or committer, but I'd like to provide some
> user-community perspective on this.
> Java 8 is just over 1 year old, and it's well known that many people and
> (especially) corporations are slow to adopt new versions. If Eclipse
> packages were to require Java 8, I can pretty much guarantee, based on many
> years' experience supporting the community, that there will be many
> complaints and confused users. In fact, in a corporate environment where
> users literally can not update their own workstations, I'd say it's highly
> likely that users would be unable to use Neon, or at least have to jump
> through corporate IT hoops to get it working.
>
> I'm not knocking Java 8 (at least not here), I'm just trying to keep
> everyone focused on the users. Just because we, as tool developers, are
> enamored and in love with the latest toys doesn't mean we can justify
> pushing them down the throats of our large user base.
>
> Eric
>
> Lars Vogel
>
> July 30, 2015 1:52 PM
>
> _______________________________________________
> epp-dev mailing list
> epp-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
> To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe from
> this list, visit
> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/epp-dev
>
> Eric Rizzo
>
> July 30, 2015 3:02 PM
>
> Doug Schaefer
>
> July 30, 2015 2:36 PM
>
> And we’re talking about Neon which releases in a year. When Java 8 will be
> two years old.
>
>
> Valid point, Doug. It gives me a little relief from me concerns, but doesn't
> totally eliminate them.
>
>
>
> There are pretty easy workarounds for those users who can’t upgrade their
> Java yet somehow found a way to install Eclipse on their machines. The
> embedded jre in the Eclipse directory still works.
>
> You'd think we're dealing with a user base, being primarily developers, who
> could easily deal with such workarounds. But time has shown that assumption
> isn't as reliable as one might think. One problem is that Oracle makes a
> portable (non-installer) JDK harder and harder to obtain. Eclipse itself
> doesn't need a typical Windows installer, but JDK does.
>
> Eric
>
>
>
> Doug.
>
>
>
> From: <epp-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx> on behalf of Lars Vogel
> <lars.vogel@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> Reply-To: Eclipse Packaging Project <epp-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 2:29 PM
> To: Eclipse Packaging Project <epp-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>, Marcel Bruch
> <marcel.bruch@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: Re: [epp-dev] Minimum BREE for EPP Neon
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> This transmission (including any attachments) may contain confidential
> information, privileged material (including material protected by the
> solicitor-client or other applicable privileges), or constitute non-public
> information. Any use of this information by anyone other than the intended
> recipient is prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error,
> please immediately reply to the sender and delete this information from your
> system. Use, dissemination, distribution, or reproduction of this
> transmission by unintended recipients is not authorized and may be unlawful.
>
> _______________________________________________
> epp-dev mailing list
> epp-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
> To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe from
> this list, visit
> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/epp-dev
>
> Lars Vogel
>
> July 30, 2015 2:29 PM
>
> Hi Eric,
>
>
>
> In this context I think we should look at the current user base. Marcel (cc)
> recently gave same real data about the current user base of Mars. @Marcel,
> please feel free to provide better numbers, but IIRC approx. 75% of the
> error reporters using Eclipse Mars are using already Java 8.
>
>
>
> Best regards, Lars
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Eclipse Platform UI and e4 project co-lead
> CEO vogella GmbH
>
> Haindaalwisch 17a, 22395 Hamburg
> Amtsgericht Hamburg: HRB 127058
> Geschäftsführer: Lars Vogel, Jennifer Nerlich de Vogel
> USt-IdNr.: DE284122352
> Fax (032) 221739404, Email: lars.vogel@xxxxxxxxxxx, Web:
> http://www.vogella.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> epp-dev mailing list
> epp-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
> To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe from
> this list, visit
> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/epp-dev
>
> Eric Rizzo
>
> July 30, 2015 2:18 PM
>
> I'm not an EPP package maintainer or committer, but I'd like to provide some
> user-community perspective on this.
> Java 8 is just over 1 year old, and it's well known that many people and
> (especially) corporations are slow to adopt new versions. If Eclipse
> packages were to require Java 8, I can pretty much guarantee, based on many
> years' experience supporting the community, that there will be many
> complaints and confused users. In fact, in a corporate environment where
> users literally can not update their own workstations, I'd say it's highly
> likely that users would be unable to use Neon, or at least have to jump
> through corporate IT hoops to get it working.
>
> I'm not knocking Java 8 (at least not here), I'm just trying to keep
> everyone focused on the users. Just because we, as tool developers, are
> enamored and in love with the latest toys doesn't mean we can justify
> pushing them down the throats of our large user base.
>
> Eric
>
> Lars Vogel
>
> July 30, 2015 1:52 PM
>
> Hi,
>
> I noticed yesterday that m2e moved to Java 8, which triggered this
> request. I contacted Markus Knauer and he suggested that I should send
> an email to this list to trigger the discussion about BREE for the
> EPP's in Neon.
>
> I personally think it would be great to require Java 8 as BREE for the
> EPP out of the following reasons:
>
> - Java 7 is out of public maintenance
> - if the EPP's decide early that they will require Java 8, other
> project will have the option to improve their code base based on Java
> 8
> - if m2e requires Java 8, AFAIK this would bump the most important
> EPP's also to Java 8.
>
> In Platform UI I would also like to support the Java 8 Date and Time
> API via Databinding, which would also bump platform to Java 8. This is
> not yet implement but on our roadmap. AFAIK the Jetty webserver also
> requires Java 8, which would result in a bump in the Eclipse Help
> system to Java 8.
>
> Best regards, Lars
> ________________________________
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> epp-dev mailing list
> epp-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
> To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe from
> this list, visit
> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/epp-dev
>
> Doug Schaefer
>
> July 30, 2015 2:36 PM
>
> And we’re talking about Neon which releases in a year. When Java 8 will be
> two years old.
>
>
>
> There are pretty easy workarounds for those users who can’t upgrade their
> Java yet somehow found a way to install Eclipse on their machines. The
> embedded jre in the Eclipse directory still works.
>
>
>
> Doug.
>
>
>
> From: <epp-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx> on behalf of Lars Vogel
> <lars.vogel@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> Reply-To: Eclipse Packaging Project <epp-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 2:29 PM
> To: Eclipse Packaging Project <epp-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>, Marcel Bruch
> <marcel.bruch@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: Re: [epp-dev] Minimum BREE for EPP Neon
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> This transmission (including any attachments) may contain confidential
> information, privileged material (including material protected by the
> solicitor-client or other applicable privileges), or constitute non-public
> information. Any use of this information by anyone other than the intended
> recipient is prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error,
> please immediately reply to the sender and delete this information from your
> system. Use, dissemination, distribution, or reproduction of this
> transmission by unintended recipients is not authorized and may be unlawful.
>
> _______________________________________________
> epp-dev mailing list
> epp-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
> To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe from
> this list, visit
> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/epp-dev
>
> Lars Vogel
>
> July 30, 2015 2:29 PM
>
> Hi Eric,
>
>
>
> In this context I think we should look at the current user base. Marcel (cc)
> recently gave same real data about the current user base of Mars. @Marcel,
> please feel free to provide better numbers, but IIRC approx. 75% of the
> error reporters using Eclipse Mars are using already Java 8.
>
>
>
> Best regards, Lars
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Eclipse Platform UI and e4 project co-lead
> CEO vogella GmbH
>
> Haindaalwisch 17a, 22395 Hamburg
> Amtsgericht Hamburg: HRB 127058
> Geschäftsführer: Lars Vogel, Jennifer Nerlich de Vogel
> USt-IdNr.: DE284122352
> Fax (032) 221739404, Email: lars.vogel@xxxxxxxxxxx, Web:
> http://www.vogella.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> epp-dev mailing list
> epp-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
> To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe from
> this list, visit
> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/epp-dev
>
> Eric Rizzo
>
> July 30, 2015 2:18 PM
>
> I'm not an EPP package maintainer or committer, but I'd like to provide some
> user-community perspective on this.
> Java 8 is just over 1 year old, and it's well known that many people and
> (especially) corporations are slow to adopt new versions. If Eclipse
> packages were to require Java 8, I can pretty much guarantee, based on many
> years' experience supporting the community, that there will be many
> complaints and confused users. In fact, in a corporate environment where
> users literally can not update their own workstations, I'd say it's highly
> likely that users would be unable to use Neon, or at least have to jump
> through corporate IT hoops to get it working.
>
> I'm not knocking Java 8 (at least not here), I'm just trying to keep
> everyone focused on the users. Just because we, as tool developers, are
> enamored and in love with the latest toys doesn't mean we can justify
> pushing them down the throats of our large user base.
>
> Eric
>
> ________________________________
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> This transmission (including any attachments) may contain confidential
> information, privileged material (including material protected by the
> solicitor-client or other applicable privileges), or constitute non-public
> information. Any use of this information by anyone other than the intended
> recipient is prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error,
> please immediately reply to the sender and delete this information from your
> system. Use, dissemination, distribution, or reproduction of this
> transmission by unintended recipients is not authorized and may be unlawful.
>
> _______________________________________________
> epp-dev mailing list
> epp-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
> To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe from
> this list, visit
> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/epp-dev
>
>
>
> --
> Eclipse Platform UI and e4 project co-lead
> CEO vogella GmbH
>
> Haindaalwisch 17a, 22395 Hamburg
> Amtsgericht Hamburg: HRB 127058
> Geschäftsführer: Lars Vogel, Jennifer Nerlich de Vogel
> USt-IdNr.: DE284122352
> Fax (032) 221739404, Email: lars.vogel@xxxxxxxxxxx, Web:
> http://www.vogella.com[attachment "image005.jpg" deleted by Daniel
> Megert/Zurich/IBM] [attachment "image003.jpg" deleted by Daniel
> Megert/Zurich/IBM] [attachment "image006.jpg" deleted by Daniel
> Megert/Zurich/IBM] [attachment "image001.jpg" deleted by Daniel
> Megert/Zurich/IBM] [attachment "image002.jpg" deleted by Daniel
> Megert/Zurich/IBM] [attachment "image004.jpg" deleted by Daniel
> Megert/Zurich/IBM] _______________________________________________
> epp-dev mailing list
> epp-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
> To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe from
> this list, visit
> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/epp-dev
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> epp-dev mailing list
> epp-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
> To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe from
> this list, visit
> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/epp-dev



--
Eclipse Platform UI and e4 project co-lead
CEO vogella GmbH

Haindaalwisch 17a, 22395 Hamburg
Amtsgericht Hamburg: HRB 127058
Geschäftsführer: Lars Vogel, Jennifer Nerlich de Vogel
USt-IdNr.: DE284122352
Fax (032) 221739404, Email: lars.vogel@xxxxxxxxxxx, Web: http://www.vogella.com
_______________________________________________
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To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe from this list, visit
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