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Re: [epp-dev] Minimum BREE for EPP Neon

AFAIK every project (in this case EPP) can set its BREE independently. As EPP is kind of special as it consumes others. This kind of forces them to pick the hightest BREE of their components.



On Thu, Jul 30, 2015 at 10:49 PM, Doug Schaefer <dschaefer@xxxxxxx> wrote:
Actually, this discussion should probably go to the cross projects list. It’s not clear to me who has the power to make this decision. Does the EPP have any power over this? It can keep the BREE at 7 and deliver broken packages, but that’s probably not a practical path.

Doug

From: <epp-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx> on behalf of Konstantin Komissarchik <konstantin.komissarchik@xxxxxxxxxx>
Reply-To: Eclipse Packaging Project <epp-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 4:34 PM
To: 'Eclipse Packaging Project' <epp-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [epp-dev] Minimum BREE for EPP Neon

Unfortunately Oomph isn’t a full solution here as you need to be able to run Oomph, which is built on the same foundation as Eclipse. Oomph might catch and handle some cases, but not everything.

 

- Konstantin

 

 

From: epp-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:epp-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Eric Rizzo
Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2015 1:08 PM


To: Eclipse Packaging Project
Subject: Re: [epp-dev] Minimum BREE for EPP Neon

 

July 30, 2015 3:54 PM

One more thing… Most of the Java-version issues that we’ve seen in our support cases could be remedied by enhancing Eclipse launcher to prompt user to select a compatible JVM. That is, the issue isn’t so much that users can’t have a particular Java version, but rather that they have multiple versions and Eclipse chooses the wrong one, or they simply don’t know that they need to install a new version.

 

- Konstantin


Well Oomph takes care of that particular problem (although IMO the UI for it still could use a bit of tweaking); I suspect by the time Neon ships, Oomph will be in full stride as the most-endorsed way of getting Eclipse (I'm pretty sure that's the way Ed and Eike would like to see it be :-).  That of course would mean the EPP packages take on a diminished role to the general user community.

Eric

 

 

From: Konstantin Komissarchik [mailto:konstantin.komissarchik@xxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2015 12:49 PM
To: 'Eclipse Packaging Project'
Subject: RE: [epp-dev] Minimum BREE for EPP Neon

 

What’s wrong with the answer that developers in environments that can’t have Java 8 have to stay on the Mars service line and rely on long term support organizations for bug fixes?

 

Another thing to note is that by the time that Neon ships, Java 9 will be just around the corner.

 

- Konstantin

 

 

From:epp-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:epp-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Eric Rizzo
Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2015 12:02 PM
To: Eclipse Packaging Project
Subject: Re: [epp-dev] Minimum BREE for EPP Neon

 


Valid point, Doug. It gives me a little relief from me concerns, but doesn't totally eliminate them.

 

There are pretty easy workarounds for those users who can’t upgrade their Java yet somehow found a way to install Eclipse on their machines. The embedded jre in the Eclipse directory still works.

You'd think we're dealing with a user base, being primarily developers, who could easily deal with such workarounds. But time has shown that assumption isn't as reliable as one might think. One problem is that Oracle makes a portable (non-installer) JDK harder and harder to obtain. Eclipse itself doesn't need a typical Windows installer, but JDK does.

Eric

 

Doug.

 

From: <epp-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx> on behalf of Lars Vogel <lars.vogel@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Reply-To: Eclipse Packaging Project <epp-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 2:29 PM
To: Eclipse Packaging Project <epp-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>, Marcel Bruch <marcel.bruch@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [epp-dev] Minimum BREE for EPP Neon

 

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July 30, 2015 2:29 PM

Hi Eric,

 

In this context I think we should look at the current user base. Marcel (cc) recently gave same real data about the current user base of Mars. @Marcel, please feel free to provide better numbers, but IIRC approx. 75% of the error reporters using Eclipse Mars are using already Java 8.

 

Best regards, Lars

 




 

--

Eclipse Platform UI and e4 project co-lead
CEO vogella GmbH

Haindaalwisch 17a, 22395 Hamburg
Amtsgericht Hamburg: HRB 127058
Geschäftsführer: Lars Vogel, Jennifer Nerlich de Vogel
USt-IdNr.: DE284122352
Fax (032) 221739404, Email: lars.vogel@xxxxxxxxxxx, Web: http://www.vogella.com

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July 30, 2015 2:18 PM

I'm not an EPP package maintainer or committer, but I'd like to provide some user-community perspective on this.
Java 8 is just over 1 year old, and it's well known that many people and (especially) corporations are slow to adopt new versions. If Eclipse packages were to require Java 8, I can pretty much guarantee, based on many years' experience supporting the community, that there will be many complaints and confused users. In fact, in a corporate environment where users literally can not update their own workstations, I'd say it's highly likely that users would be unable to use Neon, or at least have to jump through corporate IT hoops to get it working.

I'm not knocking Java 8 (at least not here), I'm just trying to keep everyone focused on the users. Just because we, as tool developers, are enamored and in love with the latest toys doesn't mean we can justify pushing them down the throats of our large user base.

Eric

July 30, 2015 1:52 PM

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July 30, 2015 3:02 PM

July 30, 2015 2:36 PM

And we’re talking about Neon which releases in a year. When Java 8 will be two years old.


Valid point, Doug. It gives me a little relief from me concerns, but doesn't totally eliminate them.

 

There are pretty easy workarounds for those users who can’t upgrade their Java yet somehow found a way to install Eclipse on their machines. The embedded jre in the Eclipse directory still works.

You'd think we're dealing with a user base, being primarily developers, who could easily deal with such workarounds. But time has shown that assumption isn't as reliable as one might think. One problem is that Oracle makes a portable (non-installer) JDK harder and harder to obtain. Eclipse itself doesn't need a typical Windows installer, but JDK does.

Eric


 

Doug.

 

From: <epp-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx> on behalf of Lars Vogel <lars.vogel@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Reply-To: Eclipse Packaging Project <epp-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 2:29 PM
To: Eclipse Packaging Project <epp-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>, Marcel Bruch <marcel.bruch@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [epp-dev] Minimum BREE for EPP Neon

 

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This transmission (including any attachments) may contain confidential information, privileged material (including material protected by the solicitor-client or other applicable privileges), or constitute non-public information. Any use of this information by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately reply to the sender and delete this information from your system. Use, dissemination, distribution, or reproduction of this transmission by unintended recipients is not authorized and may be unlawful.

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July 30, 2015 2:29 PM

Hi Eric,

 

In this context I think we should look at the current user base. Marcel (cc) recently gave same real data about the current user base of Mars. @Marcel, please feel free to provide better numbers, but IIRC approx. 75% of the error reporters using Eclipse Mars are using already Java 8.

 

Best regards, Lars

 




 

--

Eclipse Platform UI and e4 project co-lead
CEO vogella GmbH

Haindaalwisch 17a, 22395 Hamburg
Amtsgericht Hamburg: HRB 127058
Geschäftsführer: Lars Vogel, Jennifer Nerlich de Vogel
USt-IdNr.: DE284122352
Fax (032) 221739404, Email: lars.vogel@xxxxxxxxxxx, Web: http://www.vogella.com

_______________________________________________
epp-dev mailing list
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To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe from this list, visit
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July 30, 2015 2:18 PM

I'm not an EPP package maintainer or committer, but I'd like to provide some user-community perspective on this.
Java 8 is just over 1 year old, and it's well known that many people and (especially) corporations are slow to adopt new versions. If Eclipse packages were to require Java 8, I can pretty much guarantee, based on many years' experience supporting the community, that there will be many complaints and confused users. In fact, in a corporate environment where users literally can not update their own workstations, I'd say it's highly likely that users would be unable to use Neon, or at least have to jump through corporate IT hoops to get it working.

I'm not knocking Java 8 (at least not here), I'm just trying to keep everyone focused on the users. Just because we, as tool developers, are enamored and in love with the latest toys doesn't mean we can justify pushing them down the throats of our large user base.

Eric

July 30, 2015 1:52 PM

Hi,

I noticed yesterday that m2e moved to Java 8, which triggered this
request. I contacted Markus Knauer and he suggested that I should send
an email to this list to trigger the discussion about BREE for the
EPP's in Neon.

I personally think it would be great to require Java 8 as BREE for the
EPP out of the following reasons:

- Java 7 is out of public maintenance
- if the EPP's decide early that they will require Java 8, other
project will have the option to improve their code base based on Java
8
- if m2e requires Java 8, AFAIK this would bump the most important
EPP's also to Java 8.

In Platform UI I would also like to support the Java 8 Date and Time
API via Databinding, which would also bump platform to Java 8. This is
not yet implement but on our roadmap. AFAIK the Jetty webserver also
requires Java 8, which would result in a bump in the Eclipse Help
system to Java 8.

Best regards, Lars




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July 30, 2015 2:36 PM

And we’re talking about Neon which releases in a year. When Java 8 will be two years old.

 

There are pretty easy workarounds for those users who can’t upgrade their Java yet somehow found a way to install Eclipse on their machines. The embedded jre in the Eclipse directory still works.

 

Doug.

 

From: <epp-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx> on behalf of Lars Vogel <lars.vogel@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Reply-To: Eclipse Packaging Project <epp-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 2:29 PM
To: Eclipse Packaging Project <epp-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>, Marcel Bruch <marcel.bruch@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [epp-dev] Minimum BREE for EPP Neon

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------
This transmission (including any attachments) may contain confidential information, privileged material (including material protected by the solicitor-client or other applicable privileges), or constitute non-public information. Any use of this information by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately reply to the sender and delete this information from your system. Use, dissemination, distribution, or reproduction of this transmission by unintended recipients is not authorized and may be unlawful.

_______________________________________________
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July 30, 2015 2:29 PM

Hi Eric,

 

In this context I think we should look at the current user base. Marcel (cc) recently gave same real data about the current user base of Mars. @Marcel, please feel free to provide better numbers, but IIRC approx. 75% of the error reporters using Eclipse Mars are using already Java 8.

 

Best regards, Lars

 




 

--

Eclipse Platform UI and e4 project co-lead
CEO vogella GmbH

Haindaalwisch 17a, 22395 Hamburg
Amtsgericht Hamburg: HRB 127058
Geschäftsführer: Lars Vogel, Jennifer Nerlich de Vogel
USt-IdNr.: DE284122352
Fax (032) 221739404, Email: lars.vogel@xxxxxxxxxxx, Web: http://www.vogella.com

_______________________________________________
epp-dev mailing list
epp-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe from this list, visit
https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/epp-dev

July 30, 2015 2:18 PM

I'm not an EPP package maintainer or committer, but I'd like to provide some user-community perspective on this.
Java 8 is just over 1 year old, and it's well known that many people and (especially) corporations are slow to adopt new versions. If Eclipse packages were to require Java 8, I can pretty much guarantee, based on many years' experience supporting the community, that there will be many complaints and confused users. In fact, in a corporate environment where users literally can not update their own workstations, I'd say it's highly likely that users would be unable to use Neon, or at least have to jump through corporate IT hoops to get it working.

I'm not knocking Java 8 (at least not here), I'm just trying to keep everyone focused on the users. Just because we, as tool developers, are enamored and in love with the latest toys doesn't mean we can justify pushing them down the throats of our large user base.

Eric


 

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This transmission (including any attachments) may contain confidential information, privileged material (including material protected by the solicitor-client or other applicable privileges), or constitute non-public information. Any use of this information by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately reply to the sender and delete this information from your system. Use, dissemination, distribution, or reproduction of this transmission by unintended recipients is not authorized and may be unlawful.

_______________________________________________
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To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe from this list, visit
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--
Eclipse Platform UI and e4 project co-lead
CEO vogella GmbH

Haindaalwisch 17a, 22395 Hamburg
Amtsgericht Hamburg: HRB 127058
Geschäftsführer: Lars Vogel, Jennifer Nerlich de Vogel
USt-IdNr.: DE284122352
Fax (032) 221739404, Email: lars.vogel@xxxxxxxxxxx, Web: http://www.vogella.com

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