Re: [eclipse.org-committers] What is appropriate use of this list - intr

[Jochen Krause <jkrause@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

In general I concur with Eds point of view: Changing the purpose of the list
is a risk with respect to the perceived importance of the messages being
sent to the list.

Maybe we can address this topic by including a [Foundation] tag in the
subject of messages that the Foundation wants to spread to all committers.
That way everybody can organize filters in a way that allows to follow
discussions at his own pace, but still get the announcements in a different
place. We could describe this namespace convention in the general
description of the list, so everybody should be able to figure it out.

Jochen


Am 06.10.2008 19:28 Uhr schrieb "Ed Merks" unter <ed.merks@xxxxxxxxx>:

> Karl,
> 
> Comments below.
> 
> 
> Karl Matthias wrote:
>> Schaefer, Doug wrote:
>>> We talked about the need to build a committer community at the
>>> architecture council meetings. And we talked about using this list to
>>> do that. It's disappointing to hear committers, especially ones who
>>> are on the architecture council, wanting to opt out of that.
>>>  
>>> If we decide to throttle discussion here, we'll end up with none, again.
>> 
>> +1.  Can someone explain to me what the burden is of having this list
>> arrive in your email box?
> Personally I prefer newsgroups as opposed to mailing lists because they
> segregate things that require my personal attention as opposed to things
> that are broadcast in which I might be interested.
>> You are in control of your email box and can organize it however you like.
> So yes, we could all organize things so that notes to the committer list
> become a background or secondary thing.  Many of use might have dozens
> or more of such secondary things; I certainly do.  Treating this mailing
> list as a discussion list rather than an "important announcement" list
> is likely to result in notes to this list being overlooked.
>>   If you feel you're seeing too much traffic, then why not filter the
>> list into a folder and read it when you have the time?
> That's exactly my concern.
>>   I do agree that asking for help on this list is not appropriate.
> That's what started all this.  If only folks felt so inclined to answer
> newsgroup questions in such volume...
>> Ed is correct that this goes to almost 1000 people (932 actually).  If
>> it really doesn't apply to the community then lets not post it here.
>> But personally I fail to see any burden being placed on anyone.
> I'd like to think I've seen everyone's point of view.   Yes, answering
> questions is helpful, yes discussions are nice, yes having more
> discussions is more goodness good, and yes even the SVN thing was
> relatively interesting, but no, I'd prefer it to be anywhere other than
> a group where people are effectively forced to subscribe.    Surely
> that's not unreasonable?  And please note that I intend to subscribe to
> whatever that vehicle will turn out to be.  It just seems disrespectful
> to insist there ought to be a captive audience for discussions. Maybe
> I'm being far too idealistic in my thinking.  I'm certainly setting
> myself up as a target for scorn, but so be it...
>>   I get many hundreds of emails a day and they get filtered into
>> appropriate folders where I can deal with them as needed.  If I find a
>> whole thread I don't want to read I just remove the thread.  Nearly
>> all modern email software handles this for you.
> Apparently I'm odd in that I make sure that every note gets at least a
> glance, usually within a few minutes...  I don't like having unread mail...
>> On the other hand I see a lot of discussion here that has happened
>> *nowhere* else.
> It's been asked where are the bugzillas with the problem reports and the
> feature requests?
>>   Not on Planet, not on bugs, not on cross-projects-dev.
> It did strike me that this subject would have been a perfect thing to
> have discussed on cross projects, but the captive audience is smaller.
> (It too has the release train project leads as a captive audience.)
>> In my opinion this community spends a lot of time working only at the
>> project level and not very much time sharing community-wide.
> That's just human nature...
>> Planet is really the only other online place where everyone can come
>> together, and unfortunately discussions on blogs are not easily
>> tracked, shared, followed up on by most people.
> It's also voluntary and to me covers a more diverse range of interesting
> topics.
>> Planet posts tend to be ephemeral.
> As opposed to mailing lists which we all like to visit again and again
> because they're so interesting. :-P
>>   How many have you ever seen with more than a handful of comments?
> How many people now have 50 more notes than they might have liked with
> effectively little choice but to add this list to the "it probably
> doesn't need my attention" category.
>> And blogs are spread out all over the 'Net with historical discussion
>> remaining very difficult to  find.  Bugs are also not a replacement
>> community-wide discussion point, in many cases.
> Yet they allow one to register or deregister interest easily.
>> Very often things that might get community support get one or two
>> comments and no one else finds them or comments on them.  Few people
>> take the time (who has it?) to poll Bugzilla for interesting issues
>> that might need their attention but are on other projects.
> A posting to this group with a bugzilla about the relative merits of CVS
> verses SVN would have sufficed.  Martin's done that now.  The whole AC
> council is CC'd on that...
>> 
>> To me this list is a perfect place for that kind of community-wide
>> discussion.
> In my opinion the purpose of this list is to announce important
> information that generally should not be ignored or relegated to the
> back burner.
>> I see almost no burden in being forcibly subscribed to this list.
> You almost don't see it? :-P  The point is that we're increasing the
> burden by turning it into a discussion group.
>>   For those of you who agree and who commented to me privately, your
>> comments on the list would be welcome.
> I could just about cry.  Why don't all 932 people send in + or -1.   We
> could generate a mail bomb.  Oh well, at least we've moved beyond the
> "holy war of the one true repository". :-P   Care to discuss the "path
> of the one true editor" anyone?  NOOOOOOO!!!!
>> 
>> Karl
>> 
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