eclipse.org-committers

+1. I did the same.
Joseph P Toomey wrote:

If I understand the comments so far, it seems clear that there was a 
desire on the part of the Architecture Council to re-purpose an 
existing mailing list which had been clearly designated as an 
"important announcement" channel, and turn it into a general "discuss 
whatever *you* think is interesting to the entire committer community" 
blathering list.  This is deemed a good thing because, at least we're 
talking.  And unless you want to renounce your committer rights, you 
can't unsubscribe.
I guess you guys win.  (Except Ed and perhaps the silent majority of 
~1000 committers who have been treated to this religious debate.) 
 After 6 years as an eclipse committer, I just created a mail rule to 
move all e-mail from eclipse.org-committers to a folder that I'll pay 
less attention to.   If that was the goal (to reduce the visibility 
and attention paid to "eclipse.org-committers" e-mails) -- mission 
accomplished.
In the spirit of not just complaining about something, I suggest that 
it would have been better to make a second mailing list, even if it 
was also mandatory subscription (perhaps 
eclipse.org-committers-discussion).  After all, a mailing list is more 
than just its subscriber list.  It also has a stated purpose, and can 
be filtered accordingly.  i.e. I'd still let eclipse.org-committers go 
to my Inbox for prompt attention, while I'd feel less urgency to read 
the 50 e-mails and counting about CVS vs. SVN.  As much as I enjoyed 
the poetry about how painful it is to administer a SVN backend, it's 
difficult to argue that it was more important for me to read that 
e-mail than to do my "day job".
--Joe

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

"Brick walls are there for a reason. They let us prove how badly we 
want things." -- Randy Pausch
Joe Toomey
Senior Software Engineer
Rational Software
IBM Software Group
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Jochen Krause wrote:

Maybe we can address this topic by including a [Foundation] tag in the

subject of messages that the Foundation wants to spread to all committers.

That way everybody can organize filters in a way that allows to follow

discussions at his own pace, but still get the announcements in a different

place. We could describe this namespace convention in the general

description of the list, so everybody should be able to figure it out.

+1, good idea.
Ed,

Personally I prefer newsgroups as opposed to mailing lists because 
they segregate things that require my personal attention as opposed to 
things that are broadcast in which I might be interested.

This is just how you personally choose to view newsgroups vs mailing 
lists.  Newsgroups are still a broadcast medium.  Really the only 
difference is that you choose to look at them when you fee like it, 
whereas per your other statement you feel you must respond immediately 
to email.  Personal views on email aside, you are in the same boat with 
it filtered to a folder as if it were a newsgroup you read (as you say 
you would.)

You are in control of your email box and can organize it however you 
like.

So yes, we could all organize things so that notes to the committer 
list become a background or secondary thing.  Many of use might have 
dozens or more of such secondary things; I certainly do.  Treating 
this mailing list as a discussion list rather than an "important 
announcement" list is likely to result in notes to this list being 
overlooked.

So we should have a separate announcements only list, then?  Rather than 
stifle discussion from worries about people missing an announcement we 
have a simple technical solution we can use instead.
  I do agree that asking for help on this list is not appropriate.

That's what started all this.  If only folks felt so inclined to 
answer newsgroup questions in such volume...

We're deciding how we want to use the list, not how it was used by one 
person.
Ed is correct that this goes to almost 1000 people (932 actually).  
If it really doesn't apply to the community then lets not post it 
here.  But personally I fail to see any burden being placed on anyone.

I'd like to think I've seen everyone's point of view.   Yes, answering 
questions is helpful, yes discussions are nice, yes having more 
discussions is more goodness good, and yes even the SVN thing was 
relatively interesting, but no, I'd prefer it to be anywhere other 
than a group where people are effectively forced to subscribe.    
Surely that's not unreasonable?  And please note that I intend to 
subscribe to whatever that vehicle will turn out to be.  It just seems 
disrespectful to insist there ought to be a captive audience for 
discussions. Maybe I'm being far too idealistic in my thinking.  I'm 
certainly setting myself up as a target for scorn, but so be it...

So you're saying, more or less, "I've evaluated everyone else's ideas 
and I like mine best."  ;)
As you are acutely aware, given your own community participation, being 
a committer is accepting the responsibility of participating in the 
community to at least a very minimal extent.  Committers are also 
required to subscribe to their respective project dev list. Does that 
mean that if I ask a question on the dev list that a committer thinks is 
uninteresting (not wrong, just uninteresting) that they should 
unsubscribe?  Where does responsibility as a committer begin?   If it 
doesn't at least take into account the needs of others in the community 
then I think we all suffer.  Keep in mind that only _committers_ can 
post to this list.  It's not a free-for-all end-user list.
  I get many hundreds of emails a day and they get filtered into 
appropriate folders where I can deal with them as needed.  If I find 
a whole thread I don't want to read I just remove the thread.  Nearly 
all modern email software handles this for you.

Apparently I'm odd in that I make sure that every note gets at least a 
glance, usually within a few minutes...  I don't like having unread 
mail...

That's a personal choice, as I pointed out.

On the other hand I see a lot of discussion here that has happened 
*nowhere* else.

It's been asked where are the bugzillas with the problem reports and 
the feature requests?

Well the bugs weren't there before, either, were they?  At least now 
there has been *some* discussion.  I think you would have to agree that 
this is an improvement, if not 100% ideal.
  Not on Planet, not on bugs, not on cross-projects-dev.  

It did strike me that this subject would have been a perfect thing to 
have discussed on cross projects, but the captive audience is 
smaller.  (It too has the release train project leads as a captive 
audience.)

Sorry, but I respectfully disagree.
In my opinion this community spends a lot of time working only at the 
project level and not very much time sharing community-wide.

That's just human nature...

Isn't civilization itself the struggle against human nature?  Ideally we 
organize our solutions and tooling to optimize the desired outcome, not 
the default state.
Planet is really the only other online place where everyone can come 
together, and unfortunately discussions on blogs are not easily 
tracked, shared, followed up on by most people.  

It's also voluntary and to me covers a more diverse range of 
interesting topics.

Well since there has been very little discussion on this list so far I 
think that's pretty hard to judge is it not?
Planet posts tend to be ephemeral.

As opposed to mailing lists which we all like to visit again and again 
because they're so interesting. :-P

I made that comment in all seriousness.  I know that I often refer to 
mailing list archives.  At least Denis, Matt, Gabe, and Bjorn do this 
often as well.  I have several times wanted a blog post and had a much 
harder time finding it.
This is long enough.  I think we could argue little points ad nauseum 
and I've made the important points I wanted to address.
Karl
In general I concur with Eds point of view: Changing the purpose of the list
is a risk with respect to the perceived importance of the messages being
sent to the list.

Maybe we can address this topic by including a [Foundation] tag in the
subject of messages that the Foundation wants to spread to all committers.
That way everybody can organize filters in a way that allows to follow
discussions at his own pace, but still get the announcements in a different
place. We could describe this namespace convention in the general
description of the list, so everybody should be able to figure it out.

Jochen

Am 06.10.2008 19:28 Uhr schrieb "Ed Merks" unter :

> Karl,
> 
> Comments below.
> 
> 
> Karl Matthias wrote:
>> Schaefer, Doug wrote:
>>> We talked about the need to build a committer community at the
>>> architecture council meetings. And we talked about using this list to
>>> do that. It's disappointing to hear committers, especially ones who
>>> are on the architecture council, wanting to opt out of that.
>>>  
>>> If we decide to throttle discussion here, we'll end up with none, again.
>> 
>> +1.  Can someone explain to me what the burden is of having this list
>> arrive in your email box?
> Personally I prefer newsgroups as opposed to mailing lists because they
> segregate things that require my personal attention as opposed to things
> that are broadcast in which I might be interested.
>> You are in control of your email box and can organize it however you like.
> So yes, we could all organize things so that notes to the committer list
> become a background or secondary thing.  Many of use might have dozens
> or more of such secondary things; I certainly do.  Treating this mailing
> list as a discussion list rather than an "important announcement" list
> is likely to result in notes to this list being overlooked.
>>   If you feel you're seeing too much traffic, then why not filter the
>> list into a folder and read it when you have the time?
> That's exactly my concern.
>>   I do agree that asking for help on this list is not appropriate.
> That's what started all this.  If only folks felt so inclined to answer
> newsgroup questions in such volume...
>> Ed is correct that this goes to almost 1000 people (932 actually).  If
>> it really doesn't apply to the community then lets not post it here.
>> But personally I fail to see any burden being placed on anyone.
> I'd like to think I've seen everyone's point of view.   Yes, answering
> questions is helpful, yes discussions are nice, yes having more
> discussions is more goodness good, and yes even the SVN thing was
> relatively interesting, but no, I'd prefer it to be anywhere other than
> a group where people are effectively forced to subscribe.    Surely
> that's not unreasonable?  And please note that I intend to subscribe to
> whatever that vehicle will turn out to be.  It just seems disrespectful
> to insist there ought to be a captive audience for discussions. Maybe
> I'm being far too idealistic in my thinking.  I'm certainly setting
> myself up as a target for scorn, but so be it...
>>   I get many hundreds of emails a day and they get filtered into
>> appropriate folders where I can deal with them as needed.  If I find a
>> whole thread I don't want to read I just remove the thread.  Nearly
>> all modern email software handles this for you.
> Apparently I'm odd in that I make sure that every note gets at least a
> glance, usually within a few minutes...  I don't like having unread mail...
>> On the other hand I see a lot of discussion here that has happened
>> *nowhere* else.
> It's been asked where are the bugzillas with the problem reports and the
> feature requests?
>>   Not on Planet, not on bugs, not on cross-projects-dev.
> It did strike me that this subject would have been a perfect thing to
> have discussed on cross projects, but the captive audience is smaller.
> (It too has the release train project leads as a captive audience.)
>> In my opinion this community spends a lot of time working only at the
>> project level and not very much time sharing community-wide.
> That's just human nature...
>> Planet is really the only other online place where everyone can come
>> together, and unfortunately discussions on blogs are not easily
>> tracked, shared, followed up on by most people.
> It's also voluntary and to me covers a more diverse range of interesting
> topics.
>> Planet posts tend to be ephemeral.
> As opposed to mailing lists which we all like to visit again and again
> because they're so interesting. :-P
>>   How many have you ever seen with more than a handful of comments?
> How many people now have 50 more notes than they might have liked with
> effectively little choice but to add this list to the "it probably
> doesn't need my attention" category.
>> And blogs are spread out all over the 'Net with historical discussion
>> remaining very difficult to  find.  Bugs are also not a replacement
>> community-wide discussion point, in many cases.
> Yet they allow one to register or deregister interest easily.
>> Very often things that might get community support get one or two
>> comments and no one else finds them or comments on them.  Few people
>> take the time (who has it?) to poll Bugzilla for interesting issues
>> that might need their attention but are on other projects.
> A posting to this group with a bugzilla about the relative merits of CVS
> verses SVN would have sufficed.  Martin's done that now.  The whole AC
> council is CC'd on that...
>> 
>> To me this list is a perfect place for that kind of community-wide
>> discussion.
> In my opinion the purpose of this list is to announce important
> information that generally should not be ignored or relegated to the
> back burner.
>> I see almost no burden in being forcibly subscribed to this list.
> You almost don't see it? :-P  The point is that we're increasing the
> burden by turning it into a discussion group.
>>   For those of you who agree and who commented to me privately, your
>> comments on the list would be welcome.
> I could just about cry.  Why don't all 932 people send in + or -1.   We
> could generate a mail bomb.  Oh well, at least we've moved beyond the
> "holy war of the one true repository". :-P   Care to discuss the "path
> of the one true editor" anyone?  NOOOOOOO!!!!
>> 
>> Karl
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> eclipse.org-committers mailing list
>> eclipse.org-committers@xxxxxxxxxxx
>> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/eclipse.org-committers
>> 
>> IMPORTANT: Membership in this list is generated by processes internal
>> to the Eclipse Foundation.  To be permanently removed from this list,
>> you must contact emo@xxxxxxxxxxx to request removal.
> _______________________________________________
> eclipse.org-committers mailing list
> eclipse.org-committers@xxxxxxxxxxx
> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/eclipse.org-committers
> 
> IMPORTANT: Membership in this list is generated by processes internal to the
> Eclipse Foundation.  To be permanently removed from this list, you must
> contact emo@xxxxxxxxxxx to request removal.

> > If we decide to throttle discussion here,
we'll end up with none, again.

> 

> +1.  
+1
> For those of you who agree and who commented
to me privately, 

> your comments on the list would be welcome.

I agree. This seems a decent venue for such discussion.
Moving the discussion to some other list will just result in the discussion's
death unless there is already the proper community in that list to receive
it. If it requires everyone on this list to subscribe to the other list
to participate in the discussion, what have we gained? Besides being subscribed
to yet another mail list. :-(
Karl,
Comments below.

Karl Matthias wrote:

Schaefer, Doug wrote:

We talked about the need to build a committer community at the 
architecture council meetings. And we talked about using this list to 
do that. It's disappointing to hear committers, especially ones who 
are on the architecture council, wanting to opt out of that.

If we decide to throttle discussion here, we'll end up with none, again.

+1.  Can someone explain to me what the burden is of having this list 
arrive in your email box?  

Personally I prefer newsgroups as opposed to mailing lists because they 
segregate things that require my personal attention as opposed to things 
that are broadcast in which I might be interested.

You are in control of your email box and can organize it however you like.

So yes, we could all organize things so that notes to the committer list 
become a background or secondary thing.  Many of use might have dozens 
or more of such secondary things; I certainly do.  Treating this mailing 
list as a discussion list rather than an "important announcement" list 
is likely to result in notes to this list being overlooked.

  If you feel you're seeing too much traffic, then why not filter the 
list into a folder and read it when you have the time?

That's exactly my concern.

  I do agree that asking for help on this list is not appropriate.

That's what started all this.  If only folks felt so inclined to answer 
newsgroup questions in such volume...

Ed is correct that this goes to almost 1000 people (932 actually).  If 
it really doesn't apply to the community then lets not post it here.  
But personally I fail to see any burden being placed on anyone.

I'd like to think I've seen everyone's point of view.   Yes, answering 
questions is helpful, yes discussions are nice, yes having more 
discussions is more goodness good, and yes even the SVN thing was 
relatively interesting, but no, I'd prefer it to be anywhere other than 
a group where people are effectively forced to subscribe.    Surely 
that's not unreasonable?  And please note that I intend to subscribe to 
whatever that vehicle will turn out to be.  It just seems disrespectful 
to insist there ought to be a captive audience for discussions. Maybe 
I'm being far too idealistic in my thinking.  I'm certainly setting 
myself up as a target for scorn, but so be it...

  I get many hundreds of emails a day and they get filtered into 
appropriate folders where I can deal with them as needed.  If I find a 
whole thread I don't want to read I just remove the thread.  Nearly 
all modern email software handles this for you.

Apparently I'm odd in that I make sure that every note gets at least a 
glance, usually within a few minutes...  I don't like having unread mail...

On the other hand I see a lot of discussion here that has happened 
*nowhere* else.

It's been asked where are the bugzillas with the problem reports and the 
feature requests?

  Not on Planet, not on bugs, not on cross-projects-dev.  

It did strike me that this subject would have been a perfect thing to 
have discussed on cross projects, but the captive audience is smaller.  
(It too has the release train project leads as a captive audience.)

In my opinion this community spends a lot of time working only at the 
project level and not very much time sharing community-wide.

That's just human nature...

Planet is really the only other online place where everyone can come 
together, and unfortunately discussions on blogs are not easily 
tracked, shared, followed up on by most people.  

It's also voluntary and to me covers a more diverse range of interesting 
topics.

Planet posts tend to be ephemeral.

As opposed to mailing lists which we all like to visit again and again 
because they're so interesting. :-P

  How many have you ever seen with more than a handful of comments?  

How many people now have 50 more notes than they might have liked with 
effectively little choice but to add this list to the "it probably 
doesn't need my attention" category.

And blogs are spread out all over the 'Net with historical discussion 
remaining very difficult to  find.  Bugs are also not a replacement 
community-wide discussion point, in many cases.

Yet they allow one to register or deregister interest easily.

Very often things that might get community support get one or two 
comments and no one else finds them or comments on them.  Few people 
take the time (who has it?) to poll Bugzilla for interesting issues 
that might need their attention but are on other projects.

A posting to this group with a bugzilla about the relative merits of CVS 
verses SVN would have sufficed.  Martin's done that now.  The whole AC 
council is CC'd on that...

To me this list is a perfect place for that kind of community-wide 
discussion.

In my opinion the purpose of this list is to announce important 
information that generally should not be ignored or relegated to the 
back burner.

I see almost no burden in being forcibly subscribed to this list.

You almost don't see it? :-P  The point is that we're increasing the 
burden by turning it into a discussion group.

  For those of you who agree and who commented to me privately, your 
comments on the list would be welcome.

I could just about cry.  Why don't all 932 people send in + or -1.   We 
could generate a mail bomb.  Oh well, at least we've moved beyond the 
"holy war of the one true repository". :-P   Care to discuss the "path 
of the one true editor" anyone?  NOOOOOOO!!!!

Karl
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IMPORTANT: Membership in this list is generated by processes internal 
to the Eclipse Foundation.  To be permanently removed from this list, 
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eclipse.org-committers

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