Re: [eclipse-incubator-e4-dev] E4 probably too late?

[Kevin McGuire <Kevin_McGuire@xxxxxxxxxx>]

Yup.  The e4 effort doesn't change
any of that.

That said, with web UI's there's no
consistent L&F to "the platform" (if you consider the web
browser itself a platform, which I think is appropriate).  Although
you might think of the browser widgets as platform widgets for the web,
everyone styles them to such a degree that they're hardly recognizeable.
 And to do anything like D&D or context menu usually involves
extension toolkits.  These bring their own L&F.  For example,
Dijit extends the paltry browser widget set with things like trees.  Flex
scrollbars on XP look nothing like the XP scrollbars. So no consistent
look since the styling is massive, and no consistent feel since basic interactions
are through custom toolkits.  Welcome to the web!

A web app looks essentially the same
(modulo browser differences) on XP as it does on GTK, and people are starting
to get used to that.  So the web is likely pushing on our notions
of the importance of platform L&F and this adds to the confusion.  Given
the flexibility of WPF we may start seeing the same trend on the desktop.
 I am not making a statement whether that's good or bad.  Ideally
Eclipse developers should be able to move with the trends. Today that means
platform L&F because people still believe its important, richer interaction
through animation etc.  because people expect that, and open ended
high styling on the web.  We have yet to see how people decide to
adopt the flexibility that WPF provides for the desktop but we're watching
the space.

As for the title of this thread, I disagree:
I don't believe e4 is too late.  I believe its happening at exactly
the time it should and could.  Perhaps the expectation is that Eclipse
should always be looking even further out, anticipating the trends.  I
don't know anybody who can do that consistently, the space is just shifting
too fast and there's tons of failed guesses lying by the wayside. 

Kevin

"Eric Moffatt" <emoffatt@xxxxxxxxx>
Sent by: eclipse-incubator-e4-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx

04/16/2008 10:13 AM

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Subject	Re: [eclipse-incubator-e4-dev] E4 probably too late?

Hmmm, as has been pointed out this is the old Swing/SWT debate...;-)

To restate the case...I think that there's a misunderstanding of SWT's
goal here...it is most explicitly -not- to make the application look identical
on different platforms. It's goal is to make the application as near to
a 'native' application as it can for each platform. Folks who work on a
particular platform live in that environment and expect that eclipse will
behave as their other applications do. (Steve, am I close?...;-)

I've always thought that this is the correct approach (even before I became
involved)...

That being said we are seeing a migration -on the platforms- towards rendering-based
'controls' ...it's needed for thumbnails and fancy animations...

Onwards,
Eric_______________________________________________
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