Hi Qinxian,
>As to WPF, no intos. XAML, forgot years. 2 months
ago, soyatec release a xaml supported product, which let me check out xaml ago.
My feel is which is what I not like and seems no clean separator of layer.
Sorry, I didn’t understand what you don’t like.
Yves YANG
http://www.soyatec.com
From:
eclipse-incubator-e4-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:eclipse-incubator-e4-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of ??
Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 4:38
AM
To: E4 developer list
Subject: Re:
[eclipse-incubator-e4-dev] E4 probably too late?
Wa, a wise thoughts and a wise man!
Worry about danger at safe place!
Agaaaain, Soorrry for my pool:) English.
As to JavaFX, I looked, not dig into. My first feel, an UI builder.
As to WPF, no intos. XAML, forgot years. 2 months ago, soyatec release a xaml
supported product, which let me check out xaml ago. My feel is which is what I
not like and seems no clean separator of layer.
My most important feel source from my Delphi experiences.
I think swtbuilder serials products seems not bad, but after some times, I left
it. Now I not use any designer.
But I found I do need a UI builder, more exactly, an UI builder helper.
So I try 2 ways:
1, normal java bean style, I combined annotation, databinding, and got a
UI helper, can create form from a bean class, a bean class with annotation, a
bean class from UI form file, a map.
The helper contains an UI layout, which is most important part, and a style,
which is like css for html.
I use MigLayout from M.G., because which can be a perfect string representation
and just one layout need in my mind.
2,property declare style. again, it's from M.G. the property declared with
public final Property<T> propertyname=new Property<T>(initValue);
This time, I not employ databinding, a directly listener binding.
The helper looks like :
@Override
pubilc void createControl(){
Form form = new Form();
form.createFrom(beanClass);//init field level handle
form.buildUI(parentComposite);//create ui elements.
form.setInput(bean);//binding and associate view and model.
}
Just for reason of time, I not community that.
IMHO,
What's the most important, I think maybe we just need a UI builder helper(so
many builder concepts:-)
This time for my workflow & bpm product, I wrote a calendar,(Yes, Yet
another:)
Hey, waaait, You far away UI topics:)
No, I talk just that. As you knows, JFace TreeViewer, MVC which be. But when I
process a complex organization structure, the provider meknism seem plain for
me, because seems I not enough. Ah-oh, I recalled, I founded I need a
powerfully controller. Let's take a look navigator view, and mylyn tasklist view,
A real controller do needed.But If I employ GEF, (a Great Edit framework, yet
another again.:-))
I known, I like the passive view(From Martin Fowler view) style.
I do an easy work by GEF to handle organizational structure, which more handy
than TreeViewer style.
Back to Calendar, Jaret do a perfect work. But when I want extends it, I
founded fall into a owner-draw hell, and not a family ways. Agaaaain, If GEFed,
I founded, A calendar, not so hard, at least no imaged hard.
IMHO,
Maybe JFace should consider GEF or same likes functionality.
Hey, pls dont back again.:)
No way! No other way:)
Back to the UI builder helper. In the process, I try to guice it and M.G.
property, I founded eclipse javac and sun javac handle generics by different
way at all. For times reason, not bugzilla it.
UI and javac? You crazy?:)
Indeed, In my deep heart, I not hope java or any other languages. But at now, I
can and only can hope java.:)[personal taste].
okayokay, why javac. I said, the VM just a database, the language just 2 part,
compiler and syntax.
If I change syntax by changing compiler, I win. From my antlr grammar
experiences, compiler should be configurabled, I think. And IDEA @NotNull seems
prove it.
In my process of property and annotation and generics, I always feel the true
need and necessaries.:)
If the javac could help handle some work, Ah-oh. a piece of cake.
IMHO,
Eclipse can do the work, start compiler configurable. No matter of what, sun
javac and eclipse javac have been differented.:) After configurabled, the UI
element process would be powerfully,
And it would quake IT:) maybe as same as Beijing now quake WhiteHouse(there was
what worry about? Who who know history knows. Only China has true history:----)
Andrey Platov, Thanks you much for your wise thoughts, which let me mail this.
Agaaain Sooorry for BAD English.:)
Kind Regards,
Qinxian
2008/4/13, Andrey Platov <andrey@xxxxxxxxx>:
Hi folks,
Few weeks passed after EclipseCon but I'm still under E4 impression. I saw
excited people around applauding demos of scripts, which changes caption color.
I saw full room of people excited with demo of the editor on the web, and I
believe many of them left EclipseCon feeling bright Eclipse future. I have
heard from E4 gang "we do not know details but it will be cool", and
I believe E4 will be cool. There was questions about 3.5, diversity, and
technical problems (like event handing), but to the best of my knowledge no one
asked E4 gang: "guys, why do you so happy? do not you think E4 is very
late?.. probably too late".
As for me - I left EclipseCon with dark thoughts about Eclipse future. There
are two names made me unhappy: WPF and JavaFX. Nevertheless I'm aware of WPF
and JavaFX exists I did not paid attention to them. After I looked I was
shocked. Both WPF and JavaFX very similay and both are definitely new way to
develop UIs. And SWT (as well as "classic" component based OS UIs) is
far away. I'm afraid many eclipse developers did not looked into WPF or JavaFX
deep. Personally I was thinking about them like declarative UI languages and
corresponding frameworks - nothing new comparing to DHTML/Scripting for
example. But I was totally wrong - they definitely rethinked how UIs shall be
build. After looking inside I started trust Sun/MS marketing people and believe
that any of these two technologies can start new age for UI development.
For me eclipse is everything during past 5 years, my work, my hobby, my
hopes... I can find everything I need in eclipse world. If I can't find anything
I can develop it. After looked at JavaFX/WPF - I can't imaging anything better,
but I can't have such technologies in my eclipse-oriented world. Most
disappointing to my totally eclipsed mind that I can have them now, but out of
eclipse. In 2008 I can start programming with WPF/JavaFX and provide UI
designer with top-notch tooling. While E4 is just an incubation
community-driven project at warming up stage, well funded and formed teams at
Sun and Microsoft worked hard on new UI development concepts for past *years*.
They done, E4 did not started.
Folks, we talking about to run E4 on desktop OSes and web runtimes such as
Flash, they own that runtimes (Java and WPF/Silverlight); we talking about new
programming models for UI; they own new technologies introducing new
programming concepts for UI (JavaFX Script and WPF/XAML) and these programming
models doing a lot intersting things in terms of databinding, event processing,
UI composition, rendering, and performance optimizations - E4 did not face that
problems in practice yet. We predict to have something (hope
"something" will include great UI tooling) in 2010 - Sun and
Microsoft releasing tools for their technologies in 2008 (upcoming JavaFX
design tools, which will be interoperable with Adobe products, and Microsoft
_expression_ WPF tooling).
I did shared my concerns with a friend (who is an eclipse committer). I told,
hey I'm frustrating how eclipse is far from what I saw in WPF and JavaFX. The
answer was: It's OK - Eclipse is a conservative platform... This is contrary to
my understanding of Eclipse during past years - I was thinking Eclipse is an
innovative platform...
5 years ago SWT was a best choise for me: it was much rich compating to AWT and
much faster comparing to early Swing. Now SWT looks like dinosaur comparing to
WPF and JavaFX. Do you think it's possible to jump into this running train?
Please can anyone comment of my concerns about SWT future (I mean basic UI
rendering layer for E4).
Will be there a switch to JavaFX? If not - do you think there can be enough
resources involved to catch JavaFX/WPF with alternative but comparable
technology (New SWT) and relevant tooling?
Kind Regards,
Andrey Platov
Eclipse DLTK Project Lead
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