From: Elias Volanakis
<elias@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: E4 Project developer mailing list <e4-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Fri, December 4, 2009 9:31:49 PM
Subject: Re: [e4-dev] modernizing the workbench visual design
Kai,
obligatory disclaimer: I am not a lawyer.
As a committer you can access IP-Zilla 3187 regarding the Hexapixel
Ribbon. Apparently Microsoft kindly asks to enter a license agreement,
which excludes certain uses and imposes certain requirements, before
writing any software that has something that resembles the "office
ribbon": http://msdn.microsoft.com/officeui
How obliged you are to enter into this and how useful that would be is
something that can only be discussed on case by case basis, so I won't
comment on that. However, my limited understanding is that the
licensing situation would be different for re-using the ribbon
implementation that comes with windows 7.
With regards to e4 I have the following thoughts:
1. I would love to see a simpler UI for Eclipse on all platforms
2. I think a ribbon-like-toolbar would be one component in a good solution
My amateur's opinion is that it should be possible to develop a
platform-independent ribbon-like-toolbar that receives the IP-Teams
"stamp of approval" as long as the look and feel is not a copy of
existing solutions.
3. Regardless of the above, I very much would like to see full support
for the Windows 7 ribbon and the aero look-and-feel in SWT
The justification for that is that Windows is still the primary
platform in the enterprise (think RCP Applications). In my work with
customers I have come across frustration about SWT exposing only
"lowest common native denominator" and "not looking as good as
the
other apps on windows" (I still love SWT). Having full support for the
ribbon and the aero look-and-feel would help making e4/SWT an
attractive platform looking forward.
Kind regards,
Elias.
On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 11:46 PM, Toedter, Kai <kai.toedter@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Elias,
>
> I agree with you and actually I am a Windows user and like your Ribbon
approach very much. Do you know if there are any legal issues that had to be
clarified with Microsoft for using a Ribbon-like design at all?
>
> And, I am not sure about the question how platform independent the basic
e4 look & feel should be. What I like right now, is that I could use
Eclipse easily on Mac or Linux without since the basic design is the same.
>
> But I really would love to see a less cluttered, modern UI :)
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Kai
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: e4-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:e4-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx]
On
>> Behalf Of Elias Volanakis
>> Sent: Donnerstag, 3. Dezember 2009 20:54
>> To: E4 Project developer mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [e4-dev] modernizing the workbench visual design and
>> remaining a good platform citizen
>>
>> One of the things I personally would like to see is a less cluttered
>> UI, with less menu elements, toolbar elements and local toolbars (see
>> Netbeans). Eclipse seems overloaded to me. Personally I also find the
>> "gray" look dated and does faring well compared with recent
apps, esp
>> on Windows 7.
>>
>> Some ideas:
>>
>> - having something like the Ribbon would help
>>
>> In my leisure time I've been working on a prototype running based on
>> Eclipse 3.5.x and the Ribbon from Hexapixel
>> (http://hexapixel.com/projects/ribbon).
See some screenshots below for
>> a rough idea - I would like to have even less stuff on there in the
>> final version. I find that having less menus and toolbar elements
makes
>> Eclipse more usable to me - very much comparable to the improvements
in
>> office when compared with the "old" office. The argument
that the
>> Ribbon takes up more space is not valid, as the Ribbon can be
collapsed
>> and the most frequently items are in the window toolbar. So it ends up
>> using less space.
>>
>> Looking forward I would very much like to see SWT support the native
>> Windows Ribbon that is part of Windows 7. I think that the licencing
>> situation would be different for that than for an emulated Ribbon, so
>> it is fair to re-open this discussion.
>>
>> - the unused space on the right side of the toolbar could be used for
>> some ambient notifications like build results, test results
>> (green/red), news/stream (twitter, recent commits). I don't have this
>> working yet.
>>
>> - making the local view toolbars hidden by default and having to click
>> something to show them. I find that 99% of the time I don't touch the
>> local view toolbars so they are wasting space. I'm working towards
>> adding the most frequently used local toolbar elements to the main
>> toolbar and making the view toolbars hidden by default.
>>
>> - modern theming, less grayness, for example the semi transparent
Aero-
>> look would fit better with Windows 7.
>>
>> Curious to hear more ideas,
>> Elias.
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 8:31 AM, Susan Franklin McCourt
>> <susan_franklin@xxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
>> > Hi, everyone.
>> > We had a brief discussion on the e4 call about this topic and
thought
>> > it would be good to make sure everyone is aware of it.
>> >
>> > We are currently working with a graphic designer to modernize the
>> > style of the Eclipse 4.0 workbench. That is, what is the default
>> > stylesheet for the Eclipse SDK running on e4?
>> >
>> > One of the more interesting constraints, which we've always had
in
>> > Eclipse, is balancing the desire for a custom/modern UI with
respect
>> > for platform look and feel, and the user's platform theme. In
Eclipse
>> > 3.x, we've done this by using native widgets in most places, and
>> > looking up system colors as a reference point when choosing
colors.
>> >
>> > For e4, we still walk this line. Sure, we will have the
technology to
>> > completely reskin the workbench, and folks are free to do so. But
for
>> > the default look, I believe we will still be balancing these
>> concerns.
>> > We may take more leeway in applying gradients, changing tab
shapes,
>> > using background images or shading, but all of this should be
done
>> > while still blending with the platform theme choices.
>> >
>> > CSS support presents a new wrinkle. It's not good enough to
simply
>> > make the right color choices for the workbench. Sure, we can do
the
>> > math internally and pick the right colors. But it would be ideal
if
>> we
>> > could provide developers with the ability to style their own
>> > applications in this platform respecting way, and include web
>> > components that could blend nicely. Since CSS is RGB-based for
color
>> > attributes, we're looking at ways to specify a more HSV-style
color
>> > for elements, where the hue could optionally be ignored and
instead
>> be
>> > derived from platform theme colors. Note we aren't just talking
about
>> > background colors for images and gradients. We'd like to be able
to
>> > specify widget colors in this way. How should this be specified
in a
>> stylesheet?
>> >
>> > Surely someone has already given some thought to this problem. If
you
>> > have ideas, please comment in this bug! [1] A more general discussion
>> > of the visual design work can be found here. [2] And watching
this
>> bug
>> > [3] will ensure you see mockups when there is something to show.
>> >
>> > thanks,
>> > susan
>> >
>> > [1] https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=296175
>> > [2] http://wiki.eclipse.org/E4/CSS/Visual_Design
>> > [3] https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=293481
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > e4-dev mailing list
>> > e4-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
>> > https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/e4-dev
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Elias Volanakis | Technical Lead | http://eclipsesource.com
>> elias@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx |
+1 503 929 5537 | @evolanakis
> _______________________________________________
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> e4-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/e4-dev
>
--
Elias Volanakis | Technical Lead | http://eclipsesource.com
elias@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx | +1 503
929 5537 | @evolanakis
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