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Great text!
My one question about "simplify the Eclipse programming
model" is: how much of our efforts are we actually putting into it at the
moment? One point about e4 being community funded is that the priorities are
whatever the contributors make them. I'd love to see more effort being put into
"simplify the programming model", but with the "loosely coupled" setup of
contributors we have today (compared to a strong project lead following a
strictly planned agenda), I see a risk of this goal being put off again and
again while we're all working on things that we see more pressing at the moment.
>From my company's perspective, I also need to admit that we see our effort in
Resources more pressing (note: I don't say "more important") than investing
in the programming model. And I assume it's similar for
others.
That being said, I see much more work around "styling the
UI" at the moment (which is not mentioned) than around "simplifying the
programming model". So, is it fair to name this as a "principle aim" of
e4? (I'd hope so). And are the "web-based runtime technologies" really a level
above the other efforts such as CSS/Styling, Modeled Workbench or
Resources?
I've tried putting these thoughts into an alternative
proposal for the text, but couldn't come up with one (looks like John's was just
too good :-) so I'm just sending these thoughts for now.
Cheers,
--
Martin Oberhuber, Senior Member of Technical
Staff, Wind River
Target Management Project
Lead, DSDP PMC Member
How does this
sound:
e4 is the community effort
for building the next generation of the Eclipse Platform. The project has
three principle aims: to simplify the Eclipse programming model, to enable the
platform for use on emerging web-based runtime technologies, and to broaden
participation in development of the platform. Simplifying the programming
model will reduce development and maintenance costs and enable a larger
developer community to leverage the platform in their own Eclipse-based
applications. Enabling the platform on new runtime technologies will
ensure the platform remains a compelling and viable application framework in a
rapidly changing web technology landscape. This will allow e4-based
applications to leverage powerful new web technologies, while remaining
insulated from specific technology choices that may quickly become obsolete.
Finally, broadening participation in development of the platform itself
reduces the risks associated with building on a platform largely funded from a
single source. Having a large and diverse group of commercial backers, will
ensure the platform remains vibrant and viable over the long term. An
investment in e4 will reduce overall development costs, enable leveraging of
new runtime technologies without being locked into short term technology
choices in an age of rapid obsolescence, and provide a stable long term
application platform.
Now I need
to go and get clean again...
John
Kevin
McGuire/Ottawa/IBM@IBMCA
Sent by: e4-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
01/13/2009 09:04 AM
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| Re: [e4-dev] e4
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Hey Jeff,
I understand and agree with it's importance.
I'm willing to help on this, but as I said, we need someone with a
business marketing side, who knows this audience, to help. Think of it
as matching grants. I also would like to see broader participation in
these kinds of efforts as its tending to fall to a small number of people who
are spread thin.
One problem we have (see, I said "problem" and not "challenge" or
"opportunity" :> ) is that an inherent goal of e4 is to be open. Thus
the definition is determined by what the participants want to do, and is
subject to change as they change their focus, more get involved, etc.
It's hard therefore to explain what it does for a consumer of it and has
I think made our "messaging" kind of wishy washy. If we had laid out a
definitive road map it would've made it easier to focus people but it would've
been at the cost of community building.
We have some pieces of technology which I believe
we could do a better job at explaining their value (modelled UI being a good
example). But IHMO, an important message must continue to be that others
can get involved and have the ability to change the direction. At this
point I personally believe this continued growth of the committer base is more
important than any of the technology.
Regards,
Kevin
Jeff McAffer
<jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent by:
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01/12/2009 09:01 PM
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Subject
| Re: [e4-dev] e4
Survey |
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Thanks Kevin. IMHO this is a significantly important
group to the overall success so communicating effectively is
important.
Clarification. One paragraph or so is the desired
content length. I don't think you can do much better for any audience
with one sentence. Think elevator pitch in a low-rise building :-)
As much as we would like to think that the value of e4 is
inherent in "its the next Eclipse", most of the rest of the community wants to
know what does it do for them. This requires a move from the techno-geek
"cool" factor to identifying the business value delivered to someone building
on top of the platform. What pain points are addressed?
Jeff
Kevin McGuire wrote:
I realize that my comment might've come across as being
uncooperative, so just to clarify:
We're clearly failing at communicating to that
audience. We're technical people and write, with some success, to other
technical people. For my part, I never write something for business
people to consume. I don't know how to communicate to that audience [1],
and though I'd like to do better, me trying again without guidance is unlikely
to produce a better result.
Someone with business/marketing knowledge who *does* know how
to communicate to that audience could help guide. I was guessing that by the
time they explain what we need to communicate, they're likely to have just
written the one sentence. :)
Seems like a lot of discussion when all that
was asked for was a single sentence but I'm concerned by the larger issue of
communication and I'd like to see a more coordinated, coherent, and, well,
professional approach, so lets start now. If I had an "e4 Inc" company,
I'd expect the marketing department to be quite involved in such an endeavour
(and I'm guessing it wouldn't be staffed by developers). So how do we
get the next best thing?
Regards,
Kevin
[1] As proof of this, when I spell checked this email I
discovered I misspelled "marketing".
Maybe those
putting together the survey could provide guidance on how the information can
be tuned to that target audience (say, by taking the proposal and reworking it
as an example :> ).
Kevin
All I can say is that the people putting together
the survey feel that the information in its current form is not readily
consumable by their target audience. Providing tuned information for
this audience will improve the quality of the feedback we
receive.
Jeff
Oberhuber, Martin wrote:
Why not have them "pull" any background
technical information rather than trying to "push" something that's bound to
be incomplete when it should just be one sentence. So what about
this:
e4
is the community effort for building the next generation of the Eclipse
Platform. For any details, see the e4 project proposal [1].
[1] http://www.eclipse.org/proposals/e4/
Of course we should
eventually prepare something on the web or the wiki that's more current but
still as informative as the project proposal. But for now, I still find the
proposal most appropriate for persons seeking a higher-level understanding of
e4.
Cheers,
--
Martin Oberhuber, Senior Member of Technical
Staff, Wind
River
Target Management Project Lead, DSDP PMC Member
http://www.eclipse.org/dsdp/tm
From: e4-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:e4-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jeff McAffer
Sent: Sunday,
January 11, 2009 8:18 PM
To: E4 Project developer mailing
list
Subject: [e4-dev] e4 Survey
At a
recent board meeting we had a discussion about e4 and what it means to the
Eclipse membership. The results were quite mixed with widely differing
opinions and thoughts. One thing that did come out was the idea of
polling the membership for some feedback. Mike Taylor, an elected
Solution Provider director on the board volunteered to poll the Solution
Providers on this topic and has set about creating a survey. As part of
this there should be a description of e4. I'll quote Mike on
this.
"I had seen the e4 description on the wiki page, but didn't find
it satisfying for the purposes of this survey. This survey will go to the
contact (often a "business" person) who is the designated EMO contact point
for a particular Solution Provider company. Its primary intent is to get a
high-level feeling for what people know and think about e4 right now. Its not
really designed to be a technical or feature survey."
It would be great if
as a community we can provide a brief (one paragraph) description of e4.
Something a bit deeper than "the next generation of Eclipse" but a bit
shallower than what's on the wiki.
This is a really good opportunity to
raise awareness of e4 and simultaneously get valuable feedback and
input.
Jeff
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