Are you scolding me for going off topic?
While not directly related to the technical discussion at hand, I
believe that this is directly connected to the underlying perception
issue.
I am happy to move this to a new thread.
Wayne
On 07/15/2013 11:37 AM, Pascal
Rapicault wrote:
Being
away when this conversation started, could you clarify how
such a page would help with addressing the issues originally
mentioned in this thread?
Off
the top of my head, the list of languages the Eclipse IDE
supports. The list of common features. The list of other
IDE add on features such as team and application life
cycle support.
Plus
the regulars like pointer to downloads, how to contribute,
etc.
Doug and I
had a very short exchange on Twitter regarding the need for
an "Eclipse IDE" page that targets end users specifically.
In my mind, this is directly related to the packages.
Currently the closest thing that we have to anything like
this is the downloads page.
What would an "Eclipse IDE" page contain?
Wayne
On 07/15/2013 09:59 AM, Andrew Ross
wrote:
+1 to code sprints (aka. hackathons) and what Andrew is
saying here.
Face to face events, and especially code sprints are a
great way to make human connections and build trust in
the community. It is so easy to overlook how crucial
this is for newcomers. Bringing them into the community
is battling against a very easy choice to simply walk
away.
Tools and process have to be "just right" to balance
properly. But you can have amazing tools and if people
just aren't inspired, or if people inadvertently get
turned off by lack of engagement even awesome tools
won't fix that. A buffer of trust built by face to face
contact can help a lot to forgive inevitable
misunderstandings, delays, PITA's, and other issues that
crop up.
On 13/07/13 18:06, Andrew Eisenberg wrote:
I'm not saying
this is THE answer or anything, but it may be
a small step towards getting more contributors
and outside participation.
We've
been holding hackathons instead of demo camps
for the past couple of years and they've been
well attended (20-30 people) and at the end of
the evening we have had 4-5 patches that are
good enough that with a little polish can be
contributed to the code base. Granted, we
haven't had any long term contributors or
committers come out of this, but at least it is
introducing newcomers to open source and the
Eclipse community. I've generally found the
experience more rewarding that the demo camps.
It's
still a bunch of work for the project leads:
making sure the getting started docs are up to
date, and finding/creating a bunch of bugs
suitable for newcomers, etc. But this is
something that is a lot of work up front and then
it pays off over the long run.
This
is not a way to get people to fix the hard bugs, and
it's not really a way to save work for project
members (since any bug that a newcomer can fix in an
evening is something that a project member can fix
in a couple of hours). What this really does is
bring life into the community and make it seem like
Eclipse is not "dead". And maybe over time, if
enough hackathons are held, this is a way to slowly
turn people into committers.
regards,
Andrew
On Sat, Jul 13, 2013 at 1:15 PM,
Doug Schaefer <dschaefer@xxxxxxx>
wrote:
I think we can do that.
Let's take that conversation to the cdt-dev
list.
From: Aleksandar
Kurtakov
Sent: Saturday,
July 13, 2013 2:35 AM
Reply To: Cross
project issues
Subject: Re:
[cross-project-issues-dev] FW:
[Doug on the Eclipse CDT] New
comment on "Eclipse smells kind
of dead"???.
|
----- Original
Message -----
> From: "Doug Schaefer" <dschaefer@xxxxxxx>
> To: "Cross project issues" <cross-project-issues-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Friday, July 12, 2013 10:19:55
PM
> Subject: Re:
[cross-project-issues-dev] FW: [Doug on
the Eclipse CDT] New comment on "Eclipse
smells kind of
> dead"???.
>
> Thanks Aleks, that's the kind of
thing I'm looking for. It's these little
> ideas that could help get new people
involved in Eclipse. We can probably
> think of a lot of little projects for
people to work on.
>
> Mind you, it needs someone or a small
group to nurture.
Hi Doug,
My team would be more than happy to join
and help such initiative - via reviews,
help newcomers, advertise it, with one
existing CDT committer even push. This
would be a radical change in my eyes for
how Eclipse projects work - there will be
changes for the sake of the change itself
and getting someone involved even if not
immediately benefitting. As I don't think
Platform would jump on such approach (at
least not now) and for such an experiment
to be viable a high profile project is
needed. CDT is perfect for this in my
eyes. What do you think? Will CDT devs
welcome such a try? Can someone from CDT
mark "easy hack" bugs somehow (keyword?)
or open such bugs so there is smth to
start with?
I know it may sound like pushing but this
issue comes and goes periodically and it
dies in discussing so a try-and-error
approach is probably better. Even if
nothing is gained all that can be lost is
some amount of our precious time which is
better use of it than just discussing.
Alexander Kurtakov
Red Hat Eclipse team
>
> As for the current discussion on what
WONTFIX means. That doesn't really
> matter much. The issue is that
problems that many users seem to really
> care about, enough to post on some
hate forum (or communicate to me
> directly if you need proof they are
real), aren't getting fixed.
>
> Doug.
>
> On 13-07-12 1:55 PM, "Aleksandar
Kurtakov" <akurtako@xxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
>
> >----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Doug Schaefer" <dschaefer@xxxxxxx>
> >> To: "Cross project issues"
<cross-project-issues-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> Sent: Friday, July 12, 2013
7:57:28 PM
> >> Subject: Re:
[cross-project-issues-dev] FW: [Doug on
the Eclipse CDT]
> >>New comment on "Eclipse
smells kind of
> >> dead"???.
> >>
> >> I'm sure your powers that be
will tell you we've all been trying that
> >>for
> >> years. Eclipse doesn't suck
enough for that to work, which is a good
> >>thing
> >> in a way. That's why I hope
we can aim at the grassroots people,
> >>individual
> >> users, who have the skills
to help.
> >
> >Exactly. But this people are
attracted by being able to use the thing
> >they have seen being advertized,
being teached in university, read about
> >in latest news site, etc.
> >Eclipse projects usually don't
satisfy any of these. Look at LibreOffice
> >there is a lot to be learned from
that community. Especially their
> >EasyHack initiative. They let
people work on modernizing the codebase
for
> >the sake of more people getting
familiar with the codebase. It might not
> >buy the project anything
immediately but once jumped in there is
some
> >percentage of people that stay
for a bit bigger tasks and a number of
> >them become important
contributors.
> >If e.g. you make it public that
for CDT things like the following are
> >acceptable:
> >* use try_with_resources
> >* use the java 7 exception ease
of use
> >* string in switch
> >* foreach, etc.
> >
> >And these patches get accepted
easily. Some of them might be willing to
> >even try harder tasks like "port
CDT to use org.eclipse.ui.console".
> >This is a guess of course but it
seems to have worked well for
> >LibreOffice.
> >
> >Alexander Kurtakov
> >
> >>
> >> Doug.
> >>
> >> From: Denis Roy < denis.roy@xxxxxxxxxxx
>
> >> Reply-To: Cross project
issues <
cross-project-issues-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
>
> >> Date: Friday, 12 July, 2013
6:50 PM
> >> To: "
cross-project-issues-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
" <
> >> cross-project-issues-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
>
> >> Subject: Re:
[cross-project-issues-dev] FW: [Doug on
the Eclipse CDT]
> >>New
> >> comment on "Eclipse smells
kind of dead"???.
> >>
> >> On 07/12/2013 12:25 PM, Doug
Schaefer wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> It is. And I'm sure there
are hate sites for every tool people use.
> >>Eclipse
> >> isn't unique that way.
> >>
> >> My point is that user
experience is so important to our success,
we
> >>need to
> >> be sensitive to the issues
our users are facing. There are a lot of
such
> >> issues marked WONTFIX, and
CDT is as guilty of that as anyone. I'm
just
> >> wondering how we fix it.
> >>
> >> As a committer, I'd be
selling the community needs to BigCorp
> >>management. If
> >> BigCorp's products are built
on Eclipse, and Eclipse comes to have the
> >> reputation of "suck", then
BigCorp's products will inherit that.
Since
> >>the
> >> users of today are the
managers of tomorrow, these managers won't
> >>purchase
> >> products that are based on
"suck".
> >>
> >> I'll do my part here: I
think the
eclipse.org website (including the
> >>Bugzilla
> >> UI) is starting to suck, and
I've already begun selling the idea to the
> >> powers that be. Not that
they need much convincing :)
> >>
> >> D.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Doug.
> >>
> >> From: Denis Roy < denis.roy@xxxxxxxxxxx
>
> >> Reply-To: Cross project
issues <
cross-project-issues-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
>
> >> Date: Friday, 12 July, 2013
5:54 PM
> >> To: "
cross-project-issues-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
" <
> >> cross-project-issues-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
>
> >> Subject: Re:
[cross-project-issues-dev] FW: [Doug on
the Eclipse CDT]
> >>New
> >> comment on "Eclipse smells
kind of dead"???.
> >>
> >> Actually, I think it is
awesome feedback, since there are only a
> >>handful of
> >> issues that seem to raise
the anger levels.
> >>
> >> I was able to trace a few of
the top items to some old bugs:
> >>
> >> File out of sync:
> >>
https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=228039
> >>
> >> Line numbers on by default:
> >>
https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=191154
> >>
> >>
> >> Those bugs are fairly old
and both are closed WONTFIX. It would be
> >> interesting if they could be
reopened for discussion.
> >>
> >> Denis
> >>
> >>
> >> On 07/12/2013 11:31 AM, Doug
Schaefer wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> http://www.ihateeclipse.com
???
> >>
> >> Pretty awesome feedback from
our passionate user base.
> >>
> >> :D
> >>
> >> From: " cdtdoug@xxxxxxxxx "
<
cdtdoug@xxxxxxxxx
>
> >> Date: Friday, 12 July, 2013
5:29 PM
> >> To: Doug Schaefer < dschaefer@xxxxxxx
>
> >> Subject: Fw: [Doug on the
Eclipse CDT] New comment on "Eclipse
smells
> >>kind of
> >> dead"???.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> From: Alex Lagarde
> >> Sent: Friday, July 12, 2013
11:25 AM
> >> To: cdtdoug@xxxxxxxxx
> >> Subject: [Doug on the
Eclipse CDT] New comment on "Eclipse
smells kind
> >>of
> >> dead"???.
> >>
> >> Alex Lagarde has left a new
comment on your post " "Eclipse smells
kind
> >>of
> >> dead"??? ":
> >>
> >> Interesting post. Maybe even
worst than bugzillas that get no answer
are
> >> general complaints about
Eclipse/Projects that never were raised as
> >>issues.
> >> That's why this Website, as
painfull as it is, provides very
interesting
> >> feedback http://www.ihateeclipse.com/
> >>
> >> We may have to think about a
better way for end-user to raise such
> >>"feelings"
> >> (maybe an amazon-like rating
system which would allow to very quickly
> >>rate
> >> from 0 to 5 stars a feature
or a project).
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Posted by Alex Lagarde to
Doug on the Eclipse CDT at 4:25 PM GMT+1
> >>
> >>
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