cobol-dev http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/cobol-dev/maillist.html cobol-dev en-us Fri, 12 Feb 2010 09:20:04 GMT Fri, 12 Feb 2010 09:20:04 GMT http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/tech/rss MHonArc RSS 2.0 RCFile webmaster@eclipse.org (Webmaster) webmaster@eclipse.org (Webmaster) cobol-dev http://www.eclipse.org/eclipse.org-common/themes/Phoenix/images/eclipse_home_header.jpg http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/cobol-dev/maillist.html Re: [cobol-dev] Termination Review complete http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/cobol-dev/msg00229.html Hello all, the termination of the project is not a surprise, because the whole project seemed to me like a mockup. When I joined the list in 2003, I offered support to the members instantaneously, but did not get a single reply for that. I then investigate... Hello all,
the termination of the project is not a surprise, because the whole project seemed to me like a mockup. When I joined the list in 2003, I offered support to the members instantaneously, but did not get a single reply for that. I then investigated the available download and found out, that it was not complete and asked the committers for a reason. They told me, that only the Linux download would work. I also tried that one and was deeply disappointed, because it lacked the same or similar problems. It looks as if there has never been a publicly available download of the COBOL plugin, which really worked.

Also the programmers had disappeared and only the committers stayed in the project. It had something of Potjomkin's village. So I went my own way and had in mind, to combine my project with Eclipse later on, but not a single programmer appeared and I began to reason about open source projects. These projects only make sense, if independent and motivated people are willing to build something for the community and also take responsability for their project. That was not the case here in the Eclipse COBOL project. Also COBOL is becoming less and less important for most of the programmers.

Thus I continue in building my generalized language environment, which started from COBOL and is formally speaking close to goto programs from computer science. I also have a good mathematical foundation and can see something beautiful at the horizon, which is close to axiomatic computer science. It might become very different from the code desert, which we all live in at the moment. Our machines are programmed like Babylon's tower was built and we aren't so far away from a technological breakdown. [Young people often don't find orientation in a world, where hardware and software standards are just and only a word. How will your grandchildren talk about the world in 2010?]

So this is, what I have and it is perhaps interesting:

a)  a working GUI*
b) a draft of a well founded theory

Is anyone out there willing to c o l l a b o r a t e and establish a new open source project?

Jens
http://cococo.de

* the GUI is called Elbe:
http://cococo.de/Context_IT_GmbH/index.jsp?content=elbe



]]> Fri, 12 Feb 2010 09:13:00 GMT http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/cobol-dev/msg00229.html jd@xxxxxxx (Jens Doll) Re: [cobol-dev] Termination Review complete http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/cobol-dev/msg00228.html The Termination Review has come and gone with no one offering to commit the resources necessary to renew the project. Therefore, the Project is considered terminated, and the related sites, information, and code will be archived. So ... kind of sad, but a... The Termination Review has come and gone with no one offering to commit the resources necessary to renew the project.

Therefore, the Project is considered terminated, and the related sites, information, and code will be archived.

So ... kind of sad, but a normal part of the ebb and flow of Open Source projects. Great thanks to those to got
it started, gave it a try, and provided some good tools to the Eclipse/Cobol community, for a time.

If there is ever interest in proposing a new Cobol project, I'm sure the old information or code can be thawed out and provided if desired.

I have opened bug 302476 to track the specific tasks required to close things down and archive the data.
https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=302476





From: David M Williams/Raleigh/IBM@IBMUS
To: cobol-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
Date: 01/25/2010 02:15 PM
Subject: [cobol-dev] Termination Review Scheduled for February 10
Sent by: cobol-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx





This has been announced elsewhere, but in the interest of maximizing communication,
a termination review has been scheduled for the Cobol project, Wednesday,
February 10, 1600 UTC (11 AM Eastern Time).

See http://www.eclipse.org/projects/whatsnew.php.

The current docuware is at
http://www.eclipse.org/project-slides/CobolTerminationReview.pdf

and the official "channel of communication" is this mailing list, cobol-dev.

Thank you,
_______________________________________________
cobol-dev mailing list
cobol-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cobol-dev

]]> Wed, 10 Feb 2010 19:08:53 GMT http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/cobol-dev/msg00228.html david_williams@xxxxxxx (David M Williams) [cobol-dev] Project meta data is out of date for tools.cobol http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/cobol-dev/msg00227.html Ron, Projects are required to keep meta data up to date using the MyFoundation Portal (http://portal.eclipse.org/). The following problems were found with this project's meta-data: * The date for release "COBOL Plug-in 3.5 Beta" is in the past, but the rel... Ron, Projects are required to keep meta data up to date using the MyFoundation Portal (http://portal.eclipse.org/). The following problems were found with this project's meta-data: * The date for release "COBOL Plug-in 3.5 Beta" is in the past, but the release is not marked as completed. If it is completed, it should be marked as completed; if it has been postponed, it should be given a new target date. * There is no next/future release of this project. All Eclipse projects must have a "next release" planned and scheduled. ]]> Fri, 05 Feb 2010 05:00:20 GMT http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/cobol-dev/msg00227.html emo@xxxxxxx (portal on behalf of emo) [cobol-dev] Termination Review Scheduled for February 10 http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/cobol-dev/msg00226.html This has been announced elsewhere, but in the interest of maximizing communication, a termination review has been scheduled for the Cobol project, Wednesday, February 10, 1600 UTC (11 AM Eastern Time). See http://www.eclipse.org/projects/whatsnew.php. The... This has been announced elsewhere, but in the interest of maximizing communication,
a termination review has been scheduled for the Cobol project, Wednesday,
February 10, 1600 UTC (11 AM Eastern Time).

See http://www.eclipse.org/projects/whatsnew.php.

The current docuware is at
http://www.eclipse.org/project-slides/CobolTerminationReview.pdf

and the official "channel of communication" is this mailing list, cobol-dev.

Thank you,

]]> Mon, 25 Jan 2010 19:15:01 GMT http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/cobol-dev/msg00226.html david_williams@xxxxxxx (David M Williams) [cobol-dev] Project meta data is out of date for tools.cobol http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/cobol-dev/msg00225.html Ron, Projects are required to keep meta data up to date using the MyFoundation Portal (http://portal.eclipse.org/). The following problems were found with this project's meta-data: * The date for release "COBOL Plug-in 3.5 Beta" is in the past, but the rel... Ron, Projects are required to keep meta data up to date using the MyFoundation Portal (http://portal.eclipse.org/). The following problems were found with this project's meta-data: * The date for release "COBOL Plug-in 3.5 Beta" is in the past, but the release is not marked as completed. If it is completed, it should be marked as completed; if it has been postponed, it should be given a new target date. * There is no next/future release of this project. All Eclipse projects must have a "next release" planned and scheduled. ]]> Tue, 05 Jan 2010 05:00:20 GMT http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/cobol-dev/msg00225.html emo@xxxxxxx (portal on behalf of emo) Re: [cobol-dev] COBOL ide development http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/cobol-dev/msg00224.html Sebastiano, and others, Thanks for this information and your interest. You'll see some of this coming through the more formal channels a bit later, but at the Tools PMC meeting today, we decided to proceed by scheduling a Termination Review for a few mont... Sebastiano, and others,

Thanks for this information and your interest.

You'll see some of this coming through the more formal channels a bit later, but at the Tools PMC meeting today, we decided to proceed by scheduling a Termination Review for a few months in the future (e.g. mid-February) which should give you plenty of time to get a Continuation Review together, if that is indeed what you decide.

We did this simply to make it clear that the default action will be the Termination Review. If you, or others, counter with a strong Continuation Review proposal then that would be great, we'll cancel the Termination Review and have the Continuation Review instead.

And, of course, even if the Project is terminated, in February, then you, or anyone, can, in the future, submit a new Project Creation Proposal to start a new Cobol Project  (and, I'm no lawyer, but I'm pretty sure once EPL, always EPL, so the code will always be there for future use, if needed ... it would only be archived as part of the termination process.).

So, give it some serious thought. We'd love to see a Continuation Review. But, we would expect it to have substance. And, we know you can't do it alone, in your spare time, so part of a strong Continuation Review would be a substantial list of committers who have time to commit to it.

I appreciate your interest, and look forward to your contributions.

Thanks,
         



From: Sebastiano Bussi <sebastiano.bussi@xxxxxxxxx>
To: "Development discussions about the COBOL IDE for Eclipse." <cobol-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: 12/10/2009 05:45 AM
Subject: Re: [cobol-dev] COBOL ide development
Sent by: cobol-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx




Thanks David, the links were informative.
I'd like to tell you that I have in my pocket the names of ten developers to contribute to the project but I don't. I see however a lot of interest from potential users i.e. both young people studying COBOL who don't have a mainframe account available and (usually less young) people who need to understand/maintain/migrate existing host solutions and don't always have the best commercial tools available.
But something viable needs to be provided first, and it needs to be in a high-visibility place in order to gain acceptance (that's why I'd rather to project not be closed).
On the plus side:
  • There is now a viable open-source back-end (OpenCOBOL) which is coagulating interest including eclipse-based front-ends
  • At least one open-source project for an eclipse-based front-end (http://www.metrixware.com/cobos/)
  • Feature-set necessary to make the product useful is small compared to other environments where cheap/free feature-set rich alternatives are available
  • I'm not just a developer, I have several years of experience of project management, including projects with people spread over different continents
On the minus side:
  • Currently no backing from commercial interests, which means having to rely on voluntary work. My own contribution would fall within this category (at least for the moment). This is obviously a major stumbling block.
In the first few months I'd concentrate on:
  • Examining the existing open-source solution(s) from companies as well as individual efforts to see how much code can be back-ported and how easily
  • Contacting companies (especially small ones) currently providing proprietary eclipse-based plug-ins to see if they are available to pool some resources on an open-source basic-capability solution over which they can provide extensions
  • Doing some (written) analysis and prioritization of the desired feature-set
At that point it will be possible to estimate whether the available resources are compatible with a minimum but still interesting feature-set for a first release by the end of 2010. I don't think it would make sense to promise anything right now.

In my opinion it's also important to get some endorsement (website links and so on) from people like the maintainers of the compiler and so on but one probably needs something to show first, so that might have to wait a little.

By the way personally I'm worried about the fact that most big commercial suppliers (like Fujitsu and Microfocus) are targeting .NET. In fact with free products like NETExpress Personal Edition (endorsed in the Murach book!) available and no credible open source alternative more new developers are being led to think of .NET as the modern serious-business platform heir to the mainframe.

I think it makes sense in general for the Eclipse ecosystem to welcome and support an effort to add a viable COBOL plug-in.
Regards,
Sebastiano Bussi

David M Williams ha scritto:

It sounds like there is interest in "transferring" this project to new leadership and committers?

Instead of the possible "Termination Review" that's been discussed, another option is to have a "Continuation Review".

For the general topic, see the Eclipse Development Process,
http://www.eclipse.org/projects/dev_process/development_process.php#6_3_5_Continuation_Review

For some examples, see
http://www.eclipse.org/project-slides/Continuation%20Review%20for%20the%20Eclipse%20ATF%20Project.pdf
and the more recent
http://www.eclipse.org/project-slides/ATF_Continuation_Review-20090624.pdf

The most important thing for a continuation review is to show there is sufficient interest and people to keep
the project going towards a release. And, for that, the Continuation Review documentation should lay out a plan for the project.

Does this look like something you'd want to pursue? If so, please give me a 20 words or less summary (figuratively)
and I'll discuss with the rest of the Tools PMC to be sure if they are agreeable to having a Continuation Review ... say, around January 13 or 20?

Thanks,



From: suehisat <suehisa.tetsuya@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: cobol-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
Date: 12/09/2009 07:25 PM
Subject: Re: [cobol-dev] COBOL ide development
Sent by: cobol-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx



Hello,

We think that we are going to terminate the project.
We appreciate your proposal. What can I do for you to take over it?

regards,
tetsuya.

> Hi,
>
> if this is the situation, I'd like to take over the project, I wouldn't
> like to see it shut down. Which steps are involved?
>
> Mike Milinkovich ha scritto:
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> What's the current situation with the project?
> >>    
> >
> > At the moment, it is in the process of being closed down.
> >
> >  
> >> Who's coordinating it?
> >>    
> >
> > No one that I am aware of.
> >
> >
> >
> >  
>
> _______________________________________________
> cobol-dev mailing list
> cobol-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cobol-dev

_______________________________________________
cobol-dev mailing list
cobol-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cobol-dev


_______________________________________________
cobol-dev mailing list
cobol-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cobol-dev
 
_______________________________________________
cobol-dev mailing list
cobol-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cobol-dev

]]> Tue, 15 Dec 2009 20:19:33 GMT http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/cobol-dev/msg00224.html david_williams@xxxxxxx (David M Williams) Re: [cobol-dev] COBOL ide development http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/cobol-dev/msg00223.html Hello Sebastiano, my current area of interest is in formal languages. The support I could give would be QA for formal aspects of language(s) and interfaces and maybe guide you by the draft idea http://cococo.de/products/documents/Columbo%20-%20Achitecture%... Hello Sebastiano,
my current area of interest is in formal languages. The support I could give would be QA for formal aspects of language(s) and interfaces and maybe guide you by the draft idea

http://cococo.de/products/documents/Columbo%20-%20Achitecture%20Draft.pdf ,

which is more than programming and includes data manipulation too. We could use a l e a n E c l i p s e and might derive it from the sources given by Wally.

Go ahead with setting goals and making plans. Also sponsors are needed.

Regards,
Jens

Sebastiano Bussi schrieb:
Would you kindly illustrate in further detail what your personal goals are?
I can understand that there was no agreement on goals, given the wide variety of different reasons for contributing, as well as (potential) user use cases.
It is important to me to share the initiative with others, as the workload would be excessive for a single contributor.

Regards,
Sebastiano Bussi



]]> Tue, 15 Dec 2009 07:29:25 GMT http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/cobol-dev/msg00223.html jd@xxxxxxx (Jens Doll) [cobol-dev] AUTO: Kaye, Myriam is on vacation (returning 12/17/2009) http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/cobol-dev/msg00222.html I am out of the office until 12/17/2009. I am out of the office, but will respond to your message when I return. I am also carrying my BlackBerry for emergencies and will read mail once in a while. Young Lee (youngl@xxxxxxxxxx) and Helmut Pfundner will se... I am out of the office until 12/17/2009. I am out of the office, but will respond to your message when I return. I am also carrying my BlackBerry for emergencies and will read mail once in a while. Young Lee (youngl@xxxxxxxxxx) and Helmut Pfundner will serve as my back-ups for DB2. For SWGEU website issues please contact Chris Goldsmith, Pat Senior or Carolyn Willson. For any other issues contact John Jenkins. John knows how to contact me in an emergency. Note: This is an automated response to your message "Re: [cobol-dev] COBOL ide development" sent on 12/14/09 2:38:03. This is the only notification you will receive while this person is away. ]]> Mon, 14 Dec 2009 09:04:08 GMT http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/cobol-dev/msg00222.html myriamk@xxxxxxx (Myriam Kaye) Re: [cobol-dev] COBOL ide development http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/cobol-dev/msg00221.html David M Williams schrieb: Not the leadership or the committer's job were the problem, but a) lack of volunteers b) missing agreement upon goals. I would support new initiatives, if they comply with my (personal) goals, which are close to research. Jens David M Williams schrieb:
It sounds like there is interest in "transferring" this project to new leadership and committers?

Instead of the possible "Termination Review" that's been discussed, another option is to have a "Continuation Review". 

Not the leadership or the committer's job were the problem, but

a) lack of volunteers
b) missing agreement upon goals.

I would support new initiatives, if they comply with my (personal) goals, which are close to research.

Jens


]]> Mon, 14 Dec 2009 07:38:02 GMT http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/cobol-dev/msg00221.html jd@xxxxxxx (Jens Doll) Re: [cobol-dev] COBOL ide development http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/cobol-dev/msg00220.html Thanks David, the links were informative. I'd like to tell you that I have in my pocket the names of ten developers to contribute to the project but I don't. I see however a lot of interest from potential users i.e. both young people studying COBOL who do... Thanks David, the links were informative.
I'd like to tell you that I have in my pocket the names of ten developers to contribute to the project but I don't. I see however a lot of interest from potential users i.e. both young people studying COBOL who don't have a mainframe account available and (usually less young) people who need to understand/maintain/migrate existing host solutions and don't always have the best commercial tools available.
But something viable needs to be provided first, and it needs to be in a high-visibility place in order to gain acceptance (that's why I'd rather to project not be closed).
On the plus side:
  • There is now a viable open-source back-end (OpenCOBOL) which is coagulating interest including eclipse-based front-ends
  • At least one open-source project for an eclipse-based front-end (http://www.metrixware.com/cobos/)
  • Feature-set necessary to make the product useful is small compared to other environments where cheap/free feature-set rich alternatives are available
  • I'm not just a developer, I have several years of experience of project management, including projects with people spread over different continents
On the minus side:
  • Currently no backing from commercial interests, which means having to rely on voluntary work. My own contribution would fall within this category (at least for the moment). This is obviously a major stumbling block.
In the first few months I'd concentrate on:
  • Examining the existing open-source solution(s) from companies as well as individual efforts to see how much code can be back-ported and how easily
  • Contacting companies (especially small ones) currently providing proprietary eclipse-based plug-ins to see if they are available to pool some resources on an open-source basic-capability solution over which they can provide extensions
  • Doing some (written) analysis and prioritization of the desired feature-set
At that point it will be possible to estimate whether the available resources are compatible with a minimum but still interesting feature-set for a first release by the end of 2010. I don't think it would make sense to promise anything right now.

In my opinion it's also important to get some endorsement (website links and so on) from people like the maintainers of the compiler and so on but one probably needs something to show first, so that might have to wait a little.

By the way personally I'm worried about the fact that most big commercial suppliers (like Fujitsu and Microfocus) are targeting .NET. In fact with free products like NETExpress Personal Edition (endorsed in the Murach book!) available and no credible open source alternative more new developers are being led to think of .NET as the modern serious-business platform heir to the mainframe.

I think it makes sense in general for the Eclipse ecosystem to welcome and support an effort to add a viable COBOL plug-in.
Regards,
Sebastiano Bussi

David M Williams ha scritto:

It sounds like there is interest in "transferring" this project to new leadership and committers?

Instead of the possible "Termination Review" that's been discussed, another option is to have a "Continuation Review".

For the general topic, see the Eclipse Development Process,
http://www.eclipse.org/projects/dev_process/development_process.php#6_3_5_Continuation_Review

For some examples, see
http://www.eclipse.org/project-slides/Continuation%20Review%20for%20the%20Eclipse%20ATF%20Project.pdf
and the more recent
http://www.eclipse.org/project-slides/ATF_Continuation_Review-20090624.pdf

The most important thing for a continuation review is to show there is sufficient interest and people to keep
the project going towards a release. And, for that, the Continuation Review documentation should lay out a plan for the project.

Does this look like something you'd want to pursue? If so, please give me a 20 words or less summary (figuratively)
and I'll discuss with the rest of the Tools PMC to be sure if they are agreeable to having a Continuation Review ... say, around January 13 or 20?

Thanks,




From: suehisat <suehisa.tetsuya@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: cobol-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
Date: 12/09/2009 07:25 PM
Subject: Re: [cobol-dev] COBOL ide development
Sent by: cobol-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx




Hello,

We think that we are going to terminate the project.
We appreciate your proposal. What can I do for you to take over it?

regards,
tetsuya.

> Hi,
>
> if this is the situation, I'd like to take over the project, I wouldn't
> like to see it shut down. Which steps are involved?
>
> Mike Milinkovich ha scritto:
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> What's the current situation with the project?
> >>    
> >
> > At the moment, it is in the process of being closed down.
> >
> >  
> >> Who's coordinating it?
> >>    
> >
> > No one that I am aware of.
> >
> >
> >
> >  
>
> _______________________________________________
> cobol-dev mailing list
> cobol-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cobol-dev

_______________________________________________
cobol-dev mailing list
cobol-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cobol-dev
 


_______________________________________________
cobol-dev mailing list
cobol-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cobol-dev

]]> Thu, 10 Dec 2009 10:42:33 GMT http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/cobol-dev/msg00220.html sebastiano.bussi@xxxxxxx (Sebastiano Bussi)