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[cdt-dev] RE: [dsdp-dd-dev] Editor technology subgroup
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Hi,
Regarding the patent discussion:
My (personal) impression is that you can patent almost
everything. It's the list of claims following the abstract
that make it unique. But I'm no patent lawyer, either.
Regarding the idea to merge the disassembly view into the
editor, ie. https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=39644
We had a similar discussion at Wind River some time ago
about whether disassembly and editor should be merged.
The result was: Keep it separate. (BTW, I had to do both)
The main reason IMHO is that the editor and disassembly
worlds are quite different, e.g.
- writable / readonly
- line numbers / addresses
- "real" source file / dynamically generated text
- one source file / potentially multiple sources (and languages!)
- fixed text size / limited only by address space
These differences pose some problems, e.g.
- The editor has a special "debug mode" which the user
(and client code) probably need to be aware of.
- Behaviour, enablement and availability of actions dealing
with the editor depends on the "mode" the editor is
currently working in. Breakpoint actions are an example.
- If folding is to be used to implement this feature,
how does that interfere with the existing code folding?
- Editors for other languages would have to replicate
this feature, unless it is pushed to the Eclipse platform.
- What about the reused/inherited features of the Eclipse text
editor framework?
- common text editor actions
- line number ruler column
- ...
How about turning the Disassembly View
into a editor, instead? This is not a big
difference implementation-wise.
Thus switching between source, mixed and disassembly
(ie. switching between debug modes)
happens in the same screen space (the editor area).
And if the disassembly even learns to highlight
the source code as the editor does,
it pretty much will look like a normal source
editor with mixed-in disassembly,
although it actually is a disassembly view
with mixed-in source, pretending to be an editor.
Just my 2 Euro Cents.
Toni
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gaff, Doug
> Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 8:43 PM
> To: Device Debugging developer discussions
> Cc: Leherbauer, Anton; CDT General developers list.
> Subject: RE: [dsdp-dd-dev] Editor technology subgroup
>
> Hi folks,
>
> I've asked Toni Leherbauer from my team to provide input on
> the editor. Toni is currently looking at enhancing the CDT
> editor and is collecting some features on the CDT project
> plan. http://wiki.eclipse.org/index.php/CDT/planning/4.0
>
> Since there is interest in the editor in both the CDT and DD
> projects, we should keep both groups in the loop. And of
> course, we should have one editor solution in the end (in
> CDT). We started discussing this in the DD project in
> Toronto simply as a way to capture requirements as they
> related to debugging.
>
> Also, as I mentioned on the recent DD call, Ted and Pawel are
> working on a prototype for a generic debugger implementation
> of the Eclipse 3.2 debug model interfaces (EDMI 3.2 for
> short). The goal is that this prototype will form the basis
> of a next-generation debugger model that benefits folks using
> CDT and folks working directly with the Eclipse platform
> today. We intend to get this committed in the next few weeks
> so that the community can start discussing architecture,
> interfaces, and requirements.
>
> So regarding the editor, I see open questions around how we
> integrate disassembly, breakpoints, instruction pointers,
> etc. with a new debugger implementation. I am also wondering
> how the editor will deal with multiple debug engines
> simultaneously (for example, how to set the default breakpoint scope).
>
> Doug
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: dsdp-dd-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:dsdp-dd-dev-
> > bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Doug Schaefer
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 2:18 PM
> > To: Device Debugging developer discussions
> > Subject: RE: [dsdp-dd-dev] Editor technology subgroup
> >
> > Well, the Using Visual C++ 5 book that I have in front of
> me right now,
> > copyright 1997, shows their Disassembly View which
> interleaves source and
> > disassembly.
> >
> > Mind you it's a view and not an editor. But then, why would
> you edit in
> > this
> > window? Does the assembly get updated based on the source
> changes you
> > make?
> > Can you edit the assembly and have the source updated?
> (That'd be cool,
> > BTW
> > :).
> >
> > What was the original use case again?
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Doug Schaefer, QNX Software Systems
> > Eclipse CDT Project Lead, Tools PMC member
> > http://cdtdoug.blogspot.com
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: dsdp-dd-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:dsdp-dd-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
> Recoskie, Chris
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 1:30 PM
> > To: Device Debugging developer discussions
> > Subject: RE: [dsdp-dd-dev] Editor technology subgroup
> >
> > I'm guessing the person I was talking to was referring to
> US patent #
> > 6,493,868. Like I said I'm not a patent lawyer so I'm not going to
> > comment as to whether or not it is truly applicable or not.
> It seems
> > very broad and I'm not sure of the rules as to how it does
> or does not
> > apply to specific features in IDEs.
> >
> > Anyway take a look and due your due diligence. It may be a
> non issue.
> >
> >
> > =====================
> >
> >
> > United States Patent 6,493,868
> > DaSilva , et al. December 10, 2002
> >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------
> > --------
> > Integrated development tool
> >
> >
> > Abstract
> > An integrated code development tool, comprising of an
> editor, a project
> > management and build system, a debugger, a profiler, and a graphical
> > data visualization system. The editor is operable to
> provide a source
> > code view which is simultaneously capable of integrating with said
> > debugger to provide for stepping through code and setting
> breakpoints,
> > and integrating with the output of said build system to
> display source
> > code interleaved with corresponding assembler code created
> by said build
> > system.
> >
> >
> > ___________________________________________
> >
> > Chris Recoskie
> > Software Designer
> > Texas Instruments, Toronto
> > http://eclipse.org/cdt
> >
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: dsdp-dd-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:dsdp-dd-dev-
> > > bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of John Cortell
> > > Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 11:51 AM
> > > To: Device Debugging developer discussions
> > > Subject: RE: [dsdp-dd-dev] Editor technology subgroup
> > >
> > > If this is true, it's extremely surprising. Interleaved
> > > source/disassemble is a staple in many debuggers. How a
> company would
> > > go about successfully patenting the implementation of
> such a feature
> > > in an open source product is puzzling, to say the least.
> Copyrighting
> > > an implementation is one thing; patenting the idea is
> another story.
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > > At 10:28 AM 5/10/2006, Recoskie, Chris wrote:
> > > >A caveat:
> > > >
> > > >I have heard that TI holds a patent on showing interleaved
> > > >source/disassembly in the editor window (but not in
> other windows, so
> > > >the current Disassembly View does not infringe this patent as I
> > > >understand it). I don't think it would be any sort of
> problem to get
> > > >this patent licensed royalty-free to Eclipse for such a
> feature, but
> > it
> > > >is an IP issue that will have to go through due
> diligence for sure.
> > > >
> > > >Disclaimer: I am not a patent lawyer and I have no authority to
> > license
> > > >the aforementioned patent, if it exists, on behalf of TI.
> > > >
> > > >___________________________________________
> > > >
> > > >Chris Recoskie
> > > >Software Designer
> > > >Texas Instruments, Toronto
> > > >http://eclipse.org/cdt
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: dsdp-dd-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:dsdp-dd-dev-
> > > > > bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of John Cortell
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 9:19 AM
> > > > > To: Device Debugging developer discussions;
> > dsdp-dd-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > > Subject: Re: [dsdp-dd-dev] Editor technology subgroup
> > > > >
> > > > > Ewa,
> > > > >
> > > > > What are the BV bug numbers? They're not Bugzilla reports from
> > what I
> > > >can
> > > > > tell.
> > > > >
> > > > > I entered a bugzilla report for "Jump to Line" a while back
> > > > >
> > > > > https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=118147
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > We are also very interested in mixed disassembler/source mode
> > > > > debugging. It seems this would be best implemented if
> indeed all
> > > > > three modes are provided in the editor. Your
> suggested approach
> > seems
> > > > > feasible to me; the debugger could generate files on
> the fly. The
> > > > > trick would be to make that approach look natural to
> the user, so
> > > > > he's not aware that he's looking at a temporary file.
> > > > >
> > > > > John
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > At 08:46 PM 5/9/2006, Ewa Matejska wrote:
> > > > > >Hi,
> > > > > >
> > > > > >I'm soliciting ideas for enhancements to the Editor
> to improve
> > the
> > > > > >embedded development experience.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Possible ideas are:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >1. Add the "Jump to Line" option the editor margin menu.
> > BV118147.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >2. Merge the Disassembly view into the Editor. This could be
> > > > > >achieved in having a special read-only debug file
> for each debug
> > > > > >session whose state would toggle between source,
> disassembly and
> > > > > >mixed in some way. Related bug is BV39644.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >These ideas will be captured at:
> > > > > >http://wiki.eclipse.org/index.php/DSDP/DD/Editor
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Chris Recoskie, as the lead of the Disassembly View,
> what do you
> > > > > >think of idea#2?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Thank You,
> > > > > >Ewa.
> > > > > >_______________________________________________
> > > > > >dsdp-dd-dev mailing list
> > > > > >dsdp-dd-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > > >https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/dsdp-dd-dev
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > dsdp-dd-dev mailing list
> > > > > dsdp-dd-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > > https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/dsdp-dd-dev
> > > >_______________________________________________
> > > >dsdp-dd-dev mailing list
> > > >dsdp-dd-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > > >https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/dsdp-dd-dev
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > dsdp-dd-dev mailing list
> > > dsdp-dd-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > > https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/dsdp-dd-dev
> > _______________________________________________
> > dsdp-dd-dev mailing list
> > dsdp-dd-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/dsdp-dd-dev
> > _______________________________________________
> > dsdp-dd-dev mailing list
> > dsdp-dd-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/dsdp-dd-dev
>
