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Re: [bpmn2-modeler-dev] Help save the BPMN2 Modeler Project from extinction!
Hi Bob,

yes I agree totally with you. (sorry for my bad English).
What I meant is that Eclipse is an open IDE which allows us to combine those tools we need for enterprise development. And developers do this in many ways. For example we use BPMN2, Java/Debugger and Maven to build our artifacts. We use also JUnit Tests to verify our models during the design phase. This works great. But in addition we use some other smaller plug-ins e.g. to generate our business reports or to hot-deploy our web fragments (jsf/css/html/_javascript_) into WildFly. I would see it as an disadvantage to switch between different tools.
The idea to use a complete web-based BPM suite sounds great on the first look. But the concept breaks in the moment when the developer needs additional tools which are not part of such a suite. The Eclipse IDE did not restrict the developer because he can combine any plug-in he need.
And I think this is also an advantage to the customers as they are not restricted in using there tools (Plug-ins) together with BPMN in one IDE.
And my fear is that by focusing on a web based bpm suite, customers will be run into a lock-in scenario, where they are no longer able to solve there problems in the way they like, only because they are missing a small plug-in. For example we would no longer be able to provide our customers with a custom-JUnit Test, to allow them to verify if there BPMN models are fulfilling the need of the target platform.

===
Ralph



On 06.03.2016 00:13, Bob Brodt wrote:
Thanks for the feedback guys. Ralph, I'm not sure where you were going with your argument, but I can completely understand the desirability of a complete web-based BPM suite in a, for example, collaborative process design effort. That said, there are things that I feel are difficult to achieve when developing client code for an embedded BPMN process engine like jBPM, such as Java coding and debugging. This is where I feel the Eclipse IDE (or any other thick-client java IDE for that matter) excel.

On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 1:29 AM, Ralph Soika <ralph.soika@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hi Bob,

I thought about the issue again and want to share my results.

From a closed marketing perspective you can argue the decision to move the JBoss Tools (JBPM, Drools) into the web browser. You will find arguments that support thus an idea. We saw exactly the same move in the camunda project. They have completely moved out from Eclipse and moved there BPMN modeller into the web browser. As an result, they advice there customers now to use IntelliJ instead of Eclipse.

So what I am thinking about is, that it is more an strategic decision to the Eclipse Platform. The advantage of Eclipse is its broad approach to tools. BPMN is an essential modeling standard in my eyes. And the BPMN2 Plugin demonstrates perfectly that Eclipse is much more than a Java IDE. We have customers (e.g. consulting companies) which are using eclipse just for modelling.
So there are two views. The strategic product decision from JBoss about their BPM platform and on the other hand Eclipse, as a tooling platform also used for modelling.
Should this discussion run therefore not even also a different level?
When JBoss and Camunda leave the train, should also Imixs and others leave the train? Where would it go?


best regards
Ralph


On 04.03.2016 00:56, Bob Brodt wrote:
Hi all,

As you may or may not know, the BPMN2 Modeler is sponsored by JBoss/Red Hat and was originally developed as the primary BPM process editor for Eclipse tooling for Drools/jBPM (which is being rebranded as BRMS/BPMS and/or BxMS, B*MS, etc.) The long-range plan for the jBPM product is to migrate existing developers to use the Web Tooling (a.k.a. KIE Workbench) editors within the Eclipse IDE. How, when and if this is going to work is still a bit of a mystery but suffice it to say that the plan is to deprecate the BPMN2 Modeler native Eclipse plug-in, in favor of "Web Designer" which is the browser-based BPM process editor offered by KIE Workbench.

My personal feelings aside, I'm not convinced that Web Designer is the best choice for a native Eclipse BPM process development tool, and I'm trying to build a case to present to my Product Manager, arguing against discontinuing development of the BPMN2 Modeler project. Since Red Hat is the industry leader in Open Source Software, we do listen to you the community members when it comes to these kinds of decisions.

Please reply to this mailing list with your opinions/experiences/recommendations.

Thanks,
"The management"

--
________________________
Robert ("Bob") Brodt
Senior Software Engineer
JBoss by Red Hat




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--
Imixs...extends the way people work together
We are an open source company, read more at: www.imixs.org
Imixs Software Solutions GmbH
Agnes-Pockels-Bogen 1, 80992 München
Web: www.imixs.com
Office: +49 (0)89-452136 16 Mobil: +49-177-4128245
Registergericht: Amtsgericht Muenchen, HRB 136045
Geschaeftsfuehrer: Gaby Heinle u. Ralph Soika

_______________________________________________
bpmn2-modeler-dev mailing list
bpmn2-modeler-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe from this list, visit
https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/bpmn2-modeler-dev



--
________________________
Robert ("Bob") Brodt
Senior Software Engineer
JBoss by Red Hat




_______________________________________________
bpmn2-modeler-dev mailing list
bpmn2-modeler-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe from this list, visit
https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/bpmn2-modeler-dev


--
Imixs...extends the way people work together
We are an open source company, read more at: www.imixs.org
Imixs Software Solutions GmbH
Agnes-Pockels-Bogen 1, 80992 München
Web: www.imixs.com
Office: +49 (0)89-452136 16 Mobil: +49-177-4128245
Registergericht: Amtsgericht Muenchen, HRB 136045
Geschaeftsfuehrer: Gaby Heinle u. Ralph Soika

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