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Hi Bob,
I've done other tests after your suggestion.
Comments are inline
Il 03/09/2013 18:21, Bob Brodt ha scritto:
See inline...
Hi Bob,
Thank you for the answers, My comments are inline
Il 03/09/2013 16:46, Bob Brodt ha scritto:
Hi Andrea,
Thanks for your comments. I'll try to answer these as best I can...
1) As you know, the BPMN 2.0 specification defines four types of diagrams: Process, Collaboration, Choreography and Conversation. Conversations are typically thought of in terms of a Collaboration (essentially messages exchanged between two or more participants) hence the BPMN2 Modeler New File wizard only provides for the first three. The tool palette is restricted by the editor to only those tools that make sense for the type of diagram being worked on. Process diagrams describe processes that are internal to an Organization (or "business entity") and therefore represent a single Pool (a.k.a. "Participant"). It would not make sense to allow creation of another Pool (which would represent a different organization) within the Process diagram. This is what the Collaboration diagram is intended for: each Pool represents a different organization, and the contents of the Pools represent the activities and processes internal to that organization.
I'm not sure about "Pool - Organization" mapping. From what i
undesrtand a Pool represent the boundaries of a business
process within an Organization.
So it's correct to say that if you're representing a case when
you want to represent collaboration between process of
different organizations you need two pools.
But in my opinion two pools could be used also to represent
two different business process within the same organization.
For this reason i still prefer to use pools to represent
boundaries of busineess processes. Lanes insted represent
group / roles within the organization.
I'm still prefer to use a Pool even if i've only one process
within an Organization.
OK you are entitled to your opinion, but that's how the
BPMN 2.0 spec defines the usage of Pools - I don't make the
rules, I only enforce them ;)
In Process diagrams, essentially the entire diagram is the
Pool, so there's no need to create a visual for a Pool;
Collaboration diagrams are used to model inter-organization
processes so Pools are are used to represent each
organization's private process.ù
Ok Bob, i think you're right when you refer to the specification. By
the way the spec in some points is not so clears in defining Pool
Mapping and their usage in Collaboration.
I think that saying a 'Pool defines boundaries of a Business Process
within organization' is not violating the spec, and i think that
using a collaboration diagram
to represent interaction between Process of the same organization is
right too...
In spec i found the following statement that in my opinion confirm
that Collaboration diagrams and Pools could also be used to model
interaction between internal processes of the same Organization
Quoted from BPMN Spec : "The flow of Messages can cross the Pool
boundary to show the interactions that exist between separate
private Business Processes."
Otherwise, the question is. If the Collaboration Diagram is only for
inter-organizations process, how would be the correct way to
represent two interacting business processes within the same
organization?
Regards the use of explicit use a Pool or not, you're right that
specification does not mandate the use of the Pool. As you said it
just a matter of preference.
I think at the end we could agree that collaboration diagrams could
be used both for representing interaction for internal-processes in
the same organization and for inter-organization processes
:)
If you want to model inter-departmental processes (e.g. sales, manufacturing, warehouse, shipping, etc.) in a Process diagram, you should be using Lanes to represent the various departments.
Ok i think we agree on that.
Whereas Process diagrams are used to model the various activities, decisions and exception handling of a business process, Choreography diagrams focus more on the information ("Messages") exchanged between participants, and the sequencing of these exchanges.
As you have probably already seen, the BPMN2 Modeler is a multipage editor, and allows you to create any number and types of diagrams within the same file.
When the editor open after you fill the wizard i see a single
page editor. I'am able to see the multiple tabs only when i
enable "Show Source View" on the diagram.
Are you referring to this when you say Multipage Editor??
There are a couple of ways to create new diagrams within a
bpmn2 file:
1. use the "Diagram" main menu action to add a new Process,
Collaboration or Choreography diagram to your file. This will
show up as a new tab at the top of the editor window.
2. use the "Push Down" context menu action for Pools and
Choreography Participants. This will create a new diagram page
and move the contents of the Pool or Participant to that page.
CAUTION: this feature is still experimental, so you may run
into some...unexpected behavior ;)
+1 Just tried . It's working as you decsribed
2) Really? I haven't run into this problem. If you can reproduce this error, please file a bug. Maybe we can arrange a screen sharing session so you can demonstrate the problem you're seeing?
Follow this steps:
a) New Generic BPMN2 Diagram
b) In the dialog boc choose Collaboration, The editor open
configuring two Pools "Initiating Pool" and "Non Initiating
Pool"
c) Select "Lane" from The Palette and add to "Initiating
Pool". Lane 1 Appears
d) Repeat Previous point: Lane 2 appears to the palette.
The pool area is not divided horizontally and the lanes are
overlapping
I'm using the following version ( take from Eclipse installed
features )
Ah, I see the problem: because Lanes can be nested, what's
probably happening is that you are dropping the second Lane
into the first one. Try dropping the second lane into the
Pool's label area. This should create two Lanes in the Pool.
Please have a look at the screencast.com video here:
+1. It's working now as expected now :) No bugs.
BPMN2 Editor 0.2.7.201308301511
org.eclipse.bpmn2.modeler.feature.feature.group Eclipse.org
3) OK, I'll take this into consideration. Can you please file an enhancement request at bugzilla?
Ok I'll do.
4) Auto layout is a feature that is already planned for a future release. As you know, BPMN 2.0 defines both a business model as well as a presentation model ("DI" or Diagram Interchange model) and typically a BPMN2 diagram file will contain both of these metadata. This is evident in the Outline Viewer, which offers three types of views: "Business Model", "Diagram Interchange Model" and "Thumbnail".
It is valid, however, to create BPMN2 diagram files that contain ONLY business model data, and the editor handles automatic creation of the presentation model if it is missing, and does a reasonable job of laying out these types of files.
I've try the following use case:
1) Created a simple collaboration diagram ( with one pool ),
with the modeler added some stuff to the pool ( a very simple
process with "start" and "end" event two task and
two parallel gateways ).
2) Then i closed the editor, opened the bpmn file manually and
removed the BPMN DI ( xml elements ).
3) Reopened the file with the editor. The editor is able to
recreate the bpmn di information but the pool is lost.
4) I laso try to do the same with a collaboration diagram with
two pools with two process, but it seems pool information will
be ignored when BPMN DI information
are rebuilt.
Hmm, looks like a bug. Can you please file a bug report
here:
I investigated a bit more on this what it happens is a bit more
complicate to what i've described.
If you create a collaboration diagram with two pools, the you close
the editor and manually removed the BPM DI information, whe you
retry to open
the file with the BPMN2 Modeler, a dialog box is shown. From the
dialog box that is showed i think the BPMN2 Modeler try to recognize
pools
as different processes and try to open a multipart editor where each
tab represent the content of a pool as a distinct process...
But the pool and lanes information are definitely lost. I 'd like to
share info with you before open the bug to ensure this is not a
problem due to
a "wrong usage" of the editor ( as it was for the lanes problems :)
)
--
Andrea Zoppello
Spagic Architect
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